Let GOD Be GOD!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. OldRegular

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    GOD tells us in Matthew’s record of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ:

    Matthew 1:20-23
    20.But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
    21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    22. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
    23. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


    Note particularly that in Verse 21 we are told that this Virgin born son, JESUS, shall save his people from their sins.

    Also note that Verse 23 tells us that through this virgin born son GOD is with us.

    Now who are HIS people whom HE will save? What does Scripture tell us?

    John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    So let GOD be GOD! Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus Christ came to save HIS people and HIS people only.
     
    #1 OldRegular, Feb 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2010
  2. Winman

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    This is a misuse and misinterpretation of scripture. In Matt 1:21 "his people" means the Jews.

    Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    When the woman from Canaan came to Jesus because her daughter was vexed with a devil, Jesus would not at first even speak to her.

    Matt 1:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
    23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.


    And this is when Jesus said he was only sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Now, it is true that after the Jews rejected Jesus that the gospel was sent unto the Gentiles. And it is also true that when this woman continued to ask Jesus to help her daughter that he did heal her. But at the time Matthew 1:21 was spoken, at this time Jesus was sent unto the Jews only. So when it says he will save "his people" from their sins it is speaking of the Jews.

    Here is what the Jamieson Fausset-Brown commentary says, just to show you I am not alone on this:

    So you see, they also agree that when Matt 1:21 was spoken, at that time it applied only to the Jews.

    And you misapply this verse. Did 100% of the Jews get saved? Just because Jesus was sent to save them does not mean 100% were saved.

    I am going to show you an analogy directly from scripture, although you will probably not accept it.

    Luke 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
    5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
    6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.


    Peter had spent all night fishing and had caught nothing. Jesus commanded them to launch out into the deep and let down their nets. Peter obeyed and they caught many fish. But very importantly, please note it says "their net brake". Many fish got away. Jesus comes to save all men, but not all men will accept his free gift of salvation and so get away.

    And it was so with the Jews. Jesus came to save all Israel (and the Gentiles later), but not all get saved. Some get away.
     
    #2 Winman, Feb 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2010
  3. kyredneck

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    :thumbs: :applause::thumbsup:
     
  4. menageriekeeper

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    "Let God be God"

    :laugh: As if any of us or what we believe could possibly prevent Him from being Himself! :laugh:

    I agree with Winman on this one. You have misinterpreted the scripture to make it agree with how you believe.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Winman

    Now I realize that some will claim that the term ”his people” applies to the Jews. This obviously did not happen as Jesus Christ was rejected by most of the Jews ao that cannot be the intent of the message revealed to Joseph by an angel of the LORD.

    So Winman you are saying that Jesus Christ failed in HIS mission since the majority of the Jews rejected HIM and still do to this day. I expected that response and you did not fail me!

    Winman you disappoint me. I thought that you used only Scripture and here I find you are using Jamieson Fausset-Brown! Have you been doing this all along but keeping it a secret? Shame on you, you have repeatedly chastized those who quoted other than SCRIPTURE. Now look at you. But if you want to read a correct exegesis of that passage consider John Gill:

    Verse. 21. And she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Jesus. For though she was with child, it could not be known any otherwise than by prediction or divine revelation, that she should have a son, whose name should be called Jesus; a name of the same signification with Joshua and Hosea, and may be interpreted a "Saviour", Ac 13:23 for the word ewvy Jesus, comes from evy which signifies "to save." And to this agrees the reason of the name given by the Angel,

    for he shall save his people from their sins.[/i The salvation here ascribed to him, and for which he is every way fit, being God as well as man, and which he is the sole author of, is to be understood, not of a temporal, but of a spiritual and everlasting salvation; such as was prophesied of, Isa 45:17 and which old Jacob had in his view, when he said, "I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord"[/i, Ge 49:18 which by the Jewish {f} Targumist is paraphrased thus:

    ``Jacob said when he saw Gideon the son of Joash, and Samson
    the son of Manoah, that they would rise up to be saviours,
    not for the salvation of Gideon do I wait, nor for the
    salvation of Samson do I look, for their salvation is atevd
    Nqrwp "a temporary salvation"; but for thy salvation, O
    Lord, do I wait and look, for thy salvation is Nymle Nqrwp
    "an everlasting salvation", or (according to another copy)
    but for the salvation of Messiah the son of David, who shall
    save the children of Israel, and bring them out of captivity,
    for thy salvation my soul waiteth.''

    By "his people" whom he is said to save are meant, not all mankind, though they are his by creation and preservation, yet they are not, nor will they be all saved by him spiritually and eternally; nor also the people of the Jews, for though they were his nation, his kinsmen, and so his own people according to the flesh, yet they were not all saved by him; many of them died in their sins, and in the disbelief of him as the Messiah: but by them are meant all the elect of God, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were given to him by his Father, as a peculiar people, and who are made willing in the day of his power upon them, to be saved by him in his own way. And these he saves from "their sins", from all their sins, original and actual; from secret and open sins; from sins of heart, lip and life; from sins of omission and commission; from all that is in sin, and omission upon it; from the guilt, punishment, and damning power of it, by his sufferings and death; and from the tyrannical government of it by his Spirit and grace; and will at last save them from the being of it, though not in this life, yet hereafter, in the other world, when they shall be without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing.

    Good old John Gill!

    I realize that the Hebrew used by Gill did not appear in proper Hebrew but then neither you nor I read Hebrew so you won't mind.
     
  6. OldRegular

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    You are wrong. Many on this Forum refuse to let GOD be GOD.

    Then you should show how I have misinterpreted the Scripture otherwise you have falsely accused me!
     
  7. kyredneck

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    Ezekiel 34:
    12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered abroad, so will I seek out my sheep; and I will deliver them out of all places whither they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
    13 And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land; and I will feed them upon the mountains of Israel, by the watercourses, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
    14 I will feed them with good pasture; and upon the mountains of the height of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie down in a good fold; and on fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
    15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord Jehovah.
    16 I will seek that which was lost, and will bring back that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but the fat and the strong I will destroy; I will feed them in justice.
    17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, the rams and the he-goats.
    18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have fed upon the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture? and to have drunk of the clear waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?
    19 And as for my sheep, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet, and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
    20 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto them: Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep.
    21 Because ye thrust with side and with shoulder, and push all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;
    22 therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep.

    John 10:
    1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
    2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
    3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
    4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
    5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
    6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
    7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
    8 All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
    9 I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.
    10 The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
    11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.
    12 He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them:
    13 he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
    14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
    15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.
     
  8. Amy.G

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    John*1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



    Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
    John 1:11
    Verse 11. He came unto his own. His own land or country. It was called his land because it was the place of his birth, and also because it was the chosen land where God delighted to dwell and to manifest his favour. See Isa 5:1-7. Over that land the laws of God had been extended, and that land had been regarded as peculiarly his, Ps 147:19-20.
    His own. His own people. There is a distinction here in the original words which is not preserved in the translation. It may be thus expressed: "He came to his own land and his own people received him not." They were his\ @people, because God had chosen them to be his above all other nations; had given to them his laws; and had signally protected and favoured them, De 7:6; 14:2.

    Received him not. Did not acknowledge him to be the Messiah. They rejected him and put him to death, agreeably to the prophecy, Isa 53:3-4.
     
  9. Winman

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    I showed how you misinterpreted this scripture.

    #1 at the time Matt 1:21 was spoken it applied to only the Jews. Amy is exactly correct in that John 1:11 is speaking only of the Jews when it says he came unto "his own".

    And you've got a serious problem there, because it says "his own received him not".

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    This proves your argument false.

    #2 not everyone who Christ came to save actually gets saved.

    So, you are misinterpreting and misapplying scripture to attempt to force it to prove your doctrine, but rightly interpreted scripture disproves your doctrine.
     
    #9 Winman, Feb 23, 2010
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  10. The Archangel

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    First off, the passage you are quoting is Matthew 10, not Matthew 1.

    Secondly, if you were correct in your interpretation Jesus would have refused to heal her daughter. He didn't. At the end of the passage, which you don't refer to at all, He does heal the daughter. It is obvious this was a test of faith for the woman. She demonstrated her faith in Christ.

    Furthermore, your interpretation presupposes that God never intended to save Gentiles until the Jews rejected Christ. This is absurd. In Genesis 12--the call of Abraham--God tells him:
    And I will make of you a great nation,
    and I will bless you and make your name great,
    so that you will be a blessing.

    I will bless those who bless you,
    and him who dishonors you I will curse,
    [so that] in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed
    God always intended to save Gentiles. The Jews' rejection of God and their subsequent rejection of Christ was all part of the plan. The Jews were intended to be a "Kingdom of Priests" and, therefore, a missionary nation--spreading and showing God's word to the nations. They failed...long before they rejected Christ.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  11. OldRegular

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    You are correct Amy in respect to John 1:11. However, Scripture does not contradict itself, neither does it lie, so in Matthew 1:21 "HIS people" does not refer to the Jews but to those given to HIM by GOD the Father!
     
  12. OldRegular

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    Winman

    You need to go all the way back to the first book in the Bible and read Genesis 3:15, the promise of redemption long before GOD called Abraham.

    Also you might try reading John 4 and the experience of the Samaritan woman with Jesus Christ.
     
  13. Winman

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    Archangel, I did not fail to mention that when the Jews rejected Jesus that the gospel went to the Gentiles. But at the time Matt 1:21 was spoken it applied only to the Jews.

    What are you talking about in Matthew 10?

    Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Maybe your bible is messed up, this verse is in Matthew 1 in my bible.

    I agree that God always intended to save the Gentiles, but not at the time Matthew 1:21 was written. That was later, read the writings of Paul.

    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Who did Jesus come to? HIS OWN. Did they receive him? No.

    You need to study more.
     
    #13 Winman, Feb 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2010
  14. OldRegular

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    Winman

    You are beginning to sound like a hyper dispensationalist! GOD forbid!:tear::tear::tear::tear:
     
  15. The Archangel

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    You posted this:

    The passage you claim as Matthew 1:22-23 is not Matthew 1, it is Matthew 15. I myself inadvertently referred to it as Matthew 10. It is Matthew 15.

    Maybe it is you who needs a new Bible. In my Bible, Genesis comes before the epistles of Paul.

    As if you don't. Your typical ugliness is not appreciated. I guess the more wrong you are the uglier you get?

    The Archangel
     
  16. AresMan

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    Let's not forget Isaiah 11:10:
    Let's not forget Romans 9:23-26:
    Let's not forget Romans 10:19-20:
     
  17. AresMan

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    The verse says "he SHALL SAVE his people from their sins." In other words, all who are "his people" actually become saved.

    If you say that "his people" here are "the Jews" do you mean all Jews? If this is the case, then Jesus failed. A prophecy way made about Jesus that was proven utterly false?!

    Also, you would have the problem of absurdity in your own assertions. If you assert that people (including "the Jews") have libertarian free will and that salvation requires the "cooperation" of this autonomous will with the otherwise ineffectual work of the Holy Spirit, how and why would God possibly make such a ridiculous and philosophically impossible claim to save "the Jews"?
     
  18. Amy.G

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    God has always saved Gentiles. But until the resurrection of Christ, a Gentile had to become a Jew by conversion (Proselyte) in order to be saved. After Jesus went to the Father, anyone, Gentile or Jew was saved through faith In Christ and did not have to become a Jew first.

    So, Jesus did come to just the Jews, but later the kingdom was opened up to anyone who had simple faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, without having to be circumcised and follow the Law.
     
  19. Amy.G

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    Maybe this will help the Calvinists.


     
  20. AresMan

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    Did both Jew and Gentile have to keep the Law to be saved? If so, how was this possible?
     

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