Let GOD Be GOD!

No, but I was as entrenched in Calvinism as you are (whether you believe it or not) and I realize how difficult it is to see another perspective clearly without taking off the Calvinistic lenses...which really gives a new sense of clarity. I'm not trying to suggest I'm always objective, because I'm not. There have been many times as a non-Calvinist I have stepped back from my current view on a subject and re-read a text trying to really understand another perspective to see if they may be right. It can't be about winning a debate or showing up your "opponent" as it sometimes is with me. I have to force myself to be objective and fair.

Please provide the post where you asked this and did not get an answer. Thanks, I may have overlooked it.

Here is my answer:

The heart CAN'T long for God or the things of God UNLESS God does something first. We BOTH believe that, not just you. Understand?

So what does God do?

Your view: He regenerates man irresistibly bringing him to faith

My view: He sent Christ to die and disciple us, He sent the apostles, He sent the scripture, He sent His Church, He sent the Holy Spirit, He sent the powerful Gospel truth all of which CAN bring a man to faith (faith comes by hearing); but it can be rejected.

So, you see we both believe man is corrupt from birth, what we DON'T agree on is that man is born HARDENED...i.e. "unable to see, hear, understand and repent."

The mistake Calvinists make is that they think by proving that MAN is an evil enemy of God they have proven MAN is "UNABLE TO SEE, HEAR and UNDERSTAND" God's divine revelation calling his enemies to be reconciled to Him. But I've clearly shown that this is a condition of a man who has BECOME HARDENED/BLINDED, and NOT the condition of a man from birth.

 

Excellently! :thumbsup:


Honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard someone say that Jesus didn't come to the Jews. That is a new one on me.

 

Exactly. The last line of Old Regulars original post said:

To this I answered that he misapplied Matt 1:21 which is speaking of the Jews.

And John 1:11 says Jesus came unto his own and his own received him not, so a Calvinist cannot argue that 100% of God's people will be saved.

So, his whole OP post was a total misapplication to attempt to force scripture to fit his doctrine.

 

Because He has not yet(in our estimation) doesn't mean He won't in the future. We can't see that far.

Just as Abel couldn't see 4000 or so years into the future to how Christ would save him from his sin, we can't say that "well, since Christ didn't save the Jews 2000 years ago He must not be able to or going to".

Let God be God. Will He not do what is right?

 

OldRegular, please read on past verse 5 and you will see that in verse 7 Paul separates the "elect" of Israel from "the rest who were hardened." Verses 8-10 go on to describe those being hardened, but Paul is clear in verse 11 to point out that "they" (the ones being hardened) have not "stumbled beyond recovery." And in verse 14 Paul even believes those same people who are being hardened might be saved once provoked to envy. And in verse 21 Paul explains that though they have been "cut off" (hardened) that they can, as "natural branches," be grafted back into the tree.

What does that mean in your system? Please explain.

 

You are just plain wrong. Jesus clearly came first to the Jews and it is said many times in the scriptures. Look what Peter said in Acts.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

I could show you much more scripture to show that Jesus came first to save Israel. But I doubt you would listen no matter how much evidence I show.

 

Sure, I've shown it many times, but for you I'll gladly do it again:

HE HID THE GOSPEL IN PARABLES.
Mark 4:10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "


HE TEMPORARILY BLINDED THEM FROM THE GOSPEL!
19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you-if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these-the natural branches-be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.


HE SENT THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR
8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day .

"UNABLE TO SEE, HEAR, UNDERSTAND OR REPENT, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN SAVED."
24 Some were persuaded by what he said, but others did not believe. 25 Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: "The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers 26 when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. 27 For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted-and I would heal them.' 28 Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"

 

Actually, I asked you about how you would interpret Romans 11, we can address this passage after you answer that. okay?

 

this was my point

 

At least you admit you are not always objective. Perhaps you don't realize you are entrenched in Arminianism? Further, Calvinism is not some outside force that has taken control of me. I embrace Calvinism, gladly. So, "entrenched" is not the correct word.

Remember, I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool Arminian. So I realize that you are not able to remove your Arminian lenses, just as you say that I cannot remove my Calvinist lenses.

What you are describing here is, basically, a universal regeneration. But, that does not comport with the rest of the Scriptures. If you were correct, which you aren't, why would the book of Acts contain these two verses:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed
Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

If you were correct, there would be no need for Luke to mention that God opened Lydia's heart to pay attention what was said by Paul. If you were correct, her heart should have already been opened.

If you were correct, there would be no need to quantify the Gentiles who believed from the Gentiles who did not, hence the "as many as."

From these two verses alone, it is clear that you presuppositions run contrary to the whole thought-line of Scripture.

Blessings,

The Archangel