Lev 16 - Day of Atonement - not so-called "doctrine of devils"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 24, 2015.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Some refer to Bible teaching as "Doctrine of Devils" - but should all Christians follow that example?

    Hopefully not.

    No not even in the case of God's teaching regarding the final resolution of Sin in the Atonement Model as HE defines it in Lev 16. (A shock for some apparently)

    The Bible says -

    Lev 16
    15 “When he slaughters the male goat for the people’s sin offering and brings its blood inside the veil, he must do the same with its blood as he did with the bull’s blood: he is to sprinkle it against the mercy seat and in front of it. 16 He will purify the most holy place in this way for all their sins because of the Israelites’ impurities and rebellious acts. He will do the same for the tent of meeting that remains among them, because it is surrounded by their impurities. 17 No one may be in the tent of meeting from the time he enters to make atonement in the most holy place until he leaves after he has made atonement for himself, his household, and the whole assembly of Israel. 18 Then he will go out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He is to take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on the horns on all sides of the altar. ...


    20 “When he has finished purifying the most holy place, the tent of meeting, and the altar, he is to present the live male goat. 21 Aaron will lay both his hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the Israelites’ wrongdoings and rebellious acts—all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the man appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on it all their wrongdoings into a desolate land, and he will release it there.
    .
    29 “This is to be a permanent statute for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month you are to practice self-denial and do no work, both the native and the foreigner who resides among you. 30 Atonement will be made for you on this day to cleanse you, and you will be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a Sabbath of complete rest for you, and you must practice self-denial; it is a permanent statute. 32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to serve as high priest in place of his father will make atonement. He will put on the linen garments, the holy garments, 33 and purify the most holy place. He will purify the tent of meeting and the altar and will make atonement for the priests and all the people of the assembly. 34 This is to be a permanent statute for you, to make atonement for the Israelites once a year because of all their sins. And all this was done as the Lord commanded Moses.

    Thus once a year "for ALL their sins" - the Day of Atonement doctrine of "GOD".

    Those who would call this resolution for "ALL their sins" - doctrine of "Atonement" - a "doctrine of devils" need to re-think the service that they do - and to whom they do it.

    ===============================

    R.C. Sproul knows about the "Accumulated sin" teaching in the Bible regarding God's "Day of Atonement" doctrine.

    BTW - this is why the Arminian model works - because the full scope of Atonement in Lev 16 includes BOTH the work of Christ as the LAMB of God - the sin offering -- AND ALSO the work of Christ in Heb 8:1 as High Priest as dictated in Lev 16.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Yet another example - of the Bible not being "doctrine of demons" -

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 5:4-6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] we see that the sinner must confess his sin as part of this act of seeking forgiveness.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 10:16-18 we see that sin is transferred in the daily as part of the sin offering -- from the people to the tent of meeting by the act of the Priests.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Lev 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”[/FONT]





    [FONT=&quot]==========================================
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]So the question is how does eating the meat of the sin offering or sprinkling the blood transfer sin unless sin had first been transferred as part of that act of confession in Lev 5.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]A possible resolution --[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 4:15, 8:14, 18 Num 8:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] we see that they were to lay their hands on the head of the sin offering.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 16:21 we see a case of laying hands on the head of the scapegoat and confessing sins.


    [FONT=&quot]RC Sproul

    [FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
     
    #2 BobRyan, May 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2015
  3. BobRyan

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    Both Lev 16 and Daniel 7 deal with the subject of the final disposition of sin. The final accounting/ judgment /reconciliation of forgiveness as it pertains to the camp of the saints - the church on earth in true Matt 7 style.

    Dan 7 also - "NOT doctrines of demons"


    1. Books are opened.
    2. Court sits and many many beings are there - not just God.
    3. The Father is presiding - And Christ comes to the Court room - Judgment once it is setup.
    4. Once that Judgment is ended - and judgment passes in favor of the saints -- the persecution of the saints ends
    5. And we have the second coming.


    [FONT=&quot]The Bible says this about the pre-advent investigative judgment that precedes the 2nd coming[/FONT]

    Dan 7
    “I watched till thrones were put in place,
    And the Ancient of Days was seated;
    His garment was white as snow,
    And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
    His throne was a fiery flame,
    Its wheels a burning fire;
    10A fiery stream issued
    And came forth from before Him.
    A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
    Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
    The court was seated,
    And the books were opened.


    And then when judgment finishes - the 2nd coming.

    Dan 7
    23 “Thus he said:
    ‘The fourth beast shall be
    A fourth kingdom on earth,
    Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
    And shall devour the whole earth,
    Trample it and break it in pieces.
    24 The ten horns are ten kings
    Who shall arise from this kingdom.
    And another shall rise after them;
    He shall be different from the first ones,
    And shall subdue three kings.
    25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
    Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
    And shall intend to change times and law.
    Then the saints shall be given into his hand
    For a time and times and half a time.

    26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
    And they shall take away his dominion,
    To consume and destroy it forever.

    27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
    And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
    Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
    His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

    ================================

    The mere quote of the scripture in this case is expected to bring out some strong howling and complaining by those opposing scripture as though it were "Doctrine of Demons" - might not happen immediately - but "sooner or later".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    What sort of "nonesense" might one get in response to such bible texts???

    By their fruits you shall know them.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. One Baptism

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    Christ Jesus is both the Bullock and the Lord's Goat, but not the Scapegoat [Azaz'el, who is representing Satan/wicked], which is why there is the mentioning of the "lots":

    And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. Leviticus 16:8

    There would be no need for "lots" to be cast if both were to represent Christ Jesus.

    "Lots" in scripture were always used to choose between two [or more] things, not one

    [Leviticus 16:8,9,10; Numbers 26:55,56, 33:54, 34:13, 36:2,3; Deuteronomy 32:9; Joshua 13:6, 14:2, 15:1, 16:1, 17:1,2,14,17, 18:6,8,10,11, 19:1,10,17,24,32,40,51, 21:4,5,6,8,10,20,40, 23:4; Judges 1:3, 20:9; 1 Samuel 14:41; 1 Chronicles 6:54,61,63,65, 16:18, 24:5,7,31, 25:8,9, 26:13,14,16; Esther 3:7, 9:24; Nehemiah 10:34, 11:1; Psalms 16:5, 22:18, 105:11, 125:3; Proverbs 1:14, 16:33, 18:18; Isaiah 17:14, 34:17, 57:6; Jeremiah 13:25; Ezekiel 24:6, 45:1, 47:22, 48:29; Daniel 12:13; Joel 3:3; Obadiah 1:11; Jonah 1:7; Micah 2:5; Nahum 3:10; Luke 1:9; Acts 1:26, 8:21, 13:19].​

    Notice, that both goats receive a designation, "one lot for the LORD".

    How many for the LORD? Two or one? It is only "one".

    The other "lot" was not then "for the LORD", but rather for someone else, "the other lot for the scapegoat".

    Notice "for the scapegoat", not "for the LORD".

    Also notice, that the scapegoat was not to make atonement for the people of God or sanctuary, but with "him", the "scapegoat":

    But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:10

    The Scapegoat was also never sacrificed, but to be "presented alive before the LORD", for the reason of making "atonement with him", after which the scapegoat was to be "let ... go ... into the wilderness", representing the desolate earth during the 1,000 years:

    Satan [represented by the scapegoat, `aza'zel, not a sacrifice for sin, but ultimately responsible for all sin] then, after the Saints are "caught up" "to meet the Lord" "into the air" and the wicked are "brought low" and "slain" [to await their final sentencing in the Second resurrection after the 1000 years], is bound by his surrounding circumstance in the "1000 years" on the desolate Earth, the "wilderness" a "land not inhabited" [see Jeremiah 4:23-29, 25:33], where was once the "fruitful place", and he is bound and led away by the "strong man" [Jesus Christ; Psalms 19:5; Proverbs 24:5; Luke 11:22], just as Leviticus 16 and Revelation 20:1-3 reveal [for events beforehand compare also Leviticus 16:17 to Revelation 15:8, and also Leviticus 16:20; Isaiah 16:21 with Jesus coming out of Heaven to Hebrews 9:28]:

    And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy [place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. - Leviticus 16:17

    [compare to]

    And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. - Revelation 15:8

    Then also:


    And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: - Leviticus 16:20

    For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. - Isaiah 26:21

    [compare to]

    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:28

    Then also:

    And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. - Leviticus 16:8

    But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:10

    And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: - Leviticus 16:20

    [compare to...]

    And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. - Revelation 20:1

    Then:

    And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: - Leviticus 16:21

    And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:22

    [compare to...]

    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, - Revelation 20:2

    And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. - Revelation 20:3

    Satan is to be "presented alive" [Leviticus 16:10], and is not eliminated at the 2nd Advent, but is to be taken and "bound" by a "great chain" [see Lamentations 3:7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6, for this is no ordinary chain of metal, seeing the devil may break these [Luke 8:29, etc], but a chain of circumstance] and "let go" into "the wilderness" alive.

    "bottomless pit" is the Greek ἄβυσσος - abussos, and means, void, a desert wilderness [see also Luke 8:29 "into the wilderness", connected with Luke 8:31, "the deep", compare also to Mark 5:10, "away out of the country", out from cultivated and populated areas], see also LXX Genesis 1:2 "without form and void" - h de gh hn aoratos kai akataskeuastos kai skotos epanw ths abussou kai pneuma qeou epefereto epanw tou udatos, etc.

    Consider also texts, which speak of the, "after many days" [1,000 years], "And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22 and "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them." Ezekiel 38:8

    [see Gog and Magog in Revelation 20, see context in Ezekiel 38]​

    The earth during the 1,000 years has no human inhabitant, for the earth is laid low by the 7 last plagues, destruction, 2nd Advent, the righteous are all "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17], and all of the wicked slain or remain slain until after the 1,000 years [Revelation 20:5a]. Satan is bound there, a place once of a Garden, a place once of Babylon the Great, now to become a "habitation of dragons" [Isaiah 34:14], "a parched ground", "thirsty land" [Isaiah 35:7]:

    And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls. Isaiah 34:14

    Dragon the symbol of satan, and owls the unclean night raptors/devils.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    The question of sin transfer -- via substitutionary atonement during the year and final atonement at the end of the year?

    =================================

    We already did that.

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 5:4-6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] we see that the sinner must confess his sin as part of this act of seeking forgiveness.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 10:16-18 we see that sin is transferred in the daily as part of the sin offering -- from the people to the tent of meeting by the act of the Priests.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Lev 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”[/FONT]





    [FONT=&quot]==========================================
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]So the question is how does eating the meat of the sin offering or sprinkling the blood transfer sin unless sin had first been transferred as part of that act of confession in Lev 5.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]A possible resolution --[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 4:15, 8:14, 18 Num 8:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] we see that they were to lay their hands on the head of the sin offering.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 16:21 we see a case of laying hands on the head of the scapegoat and confessing sins.


    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Quote:
    <<,RC Sproul

    Finally, the repeated sins of priests and people alike could build up to the point where not only the tabernacle but even the throne room of the Lord — the Most Holy Place or Holy of Holies — would also be contaminated. The Day of Atonement was designed to deal with all these realities.>>>


    Can there be greater blasphemy than this?!

    Can there be greater BLINDNESS than not being able to discern the blasphemy in this?!

    Because <<the Lord — the Most Holy Place or Holy of Holies>> IS HE!

    And it is written in so many words of God's Inspiration:
    "Being rested up again (from the dead and grave) His (Jesus Christ's) Name is : The Most Holy Place". Isaiah 57:15.

    Would Jesus Christ <<also be contaminated>> by <<the repeated sins of priests and people alike>>?!

    God forbid! the mere thought of it.

    O Sabbathtarians! The devil gave birth to your organisation SO THAT he can dishonour not only the Lord's Day but the Lord of the Sabbath Day.

     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    In the sanctuary of the type, reconciliation and or atonement was made NOT INSIDE, BUT OUTSIDE and when CAME OUT the high priest in the day of atonement.

    The Adventists went wrong at this point, and REVERSED the truth into their HERESY of an atonement being FINISHED INSIDE the ark of the covenant.

    Jesus Christ did not FINISH atonement IN THE GRAVE, but when He ROSE FROM THE GRAVE.

    Take this lesson in TRUTH to heart and RENOUNCE your former ERROR and be saved, o so self-satisfied Laodiceans!

    Refer : http://biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 6, 1 Atonement.pdf
     
  9. vooks

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    Yours is worse, hopelessly confused. They folly of attempting to match a shadow and the reality to the dot.
     
  10. vooks

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    Ignorant pomposity incarnate
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    You certainly are one of them; your speech betrays you.

    This is the second time you have given yourself away for what you in the darkest corners of your heart, are : one fully convinced of the Divine truth of the Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD, but too afraid and ashamed of the Lord Jesus to openly confess Him before the world who is both the Creator and Redeemer of the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD.
     
    #11 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 28, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2015
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    This is why the Arminian model does NOT <work> :- Because the FULL scope of Atonement in Lev 16 includes BOTH the work of Christ as the LAMB of God - the sin offering -- AND ALSO the work of Christ in Heb 8:1 as High Priest as dictated in Lev 16 -- WHO IS <<The Sin Offering>> THE ONE AND ONCE FOR ALL LAMB of God.

    It is ONE Work of the ONE Lamb of God ONCE offered for the sins of many ONCE resurrected from the dead for their justification, reconciliation and <atonement> "FOREVERMORE".
     
  13. vooks

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    You are right in that atonement is finished work not ongoing since 1844, you are wrong and totally confused on your shadow-reality matches.

    Sabbath is as valid as circumcision
     
  14. vooks

    vooks
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    Made sense for once buddy!
     
  15. BobRyan

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    I think I already posted this -- but consider the texts -- sans the ad hominem for a second.

    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    I better must go have a look at that post again; it is very dangerous if Vooks finds it makes sense.

     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Not even boring; repugnant.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    And I am not everybody's <buddy>. Don't be so arrogant.

    I choose my buddies myself, and they, me, genuinely. Falseness is a stranger in our conversation.
     
    #18 Gerhard Ebersoehn, May 29, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2015
  19. vooks

    vooks
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    Get some education sir, ever heard of nuances?
    That is a figure of speech:smilewinkgrin:
     
  20. BobRyan

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    By contrast - this is the subject of the actual thread --

    ===============================================

    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    The question of sin transfer -- via substitutionary atonement during the year and final atonement at the end of the year?

    =================================

    We already did that.

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 5:4-6[/FONT][FONT=&quot] we see that the sinner must confess his sin as part of this act of seeking forgiveness.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 10:16-18 we see that sin is transferred in the daily as part of the sin offering -- from the people to the tent of meeting by the act of the Priests.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Lev 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]16 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Lord[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 18 Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.”[/FONT]





    [FONT=&quot]==========================================
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]So the question is how does eating the meat of the sin offering or sprinkling the blood transfer sin unless sin had first been transferred as part of that act of confession in Lev 5.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]A possible resolution --[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 4:15, 8:14, 18 Num 8:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] we see that they were to lay their hands on the head of the sin offering.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]In Lev 16:21 we see a case of laying hands on the head of the scapegoat and confessing sins.
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    ======================================
    Quote:
    [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]RC Sproul

    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]Finally, the repeated sins of priests and people alike could build up to the point where not only the tabernacle but even the throne room of the Lord — the Most Holy Place or Holy of Holies — would also be contaminated. The Day of Atonement was designed to deal with all these realities.

    [/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devoti...day-atonement/[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
    [/FONT]
    [/FONT]
     

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