Liberty Baptist is Back

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by Martin, Dec 19, 2007.

  1. Martin

    Martin
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    Liberty Theological Seminary is once again Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. Dr Ergun Caner has announced, and Jerry Falwell Jr. has approved, the return to the older name. I am very pleased with this because the school should stick with its Baptist roots and because my degree says "Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary".

    Two thumbs up to Dr. Caner and Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. :thumbs:

    Click Here For Article
     
  2. Rippon

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    Generally Ergun Caner merits 4 fingers down for every thumb up .

    One of the 5 major returns to Baptist roots is "General Atonement " . That's a departure from most of Baptistic history . We are seeing a retreat from biblical orthodoxy , not an advance .
     
  3. Martin

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    Liberty Seminary and Baptist Heritage

    Having given Dr. Caner two thumbs up, allow me to give him two thumbs down for his lack of historical knowledge. In his address, Dr. Caner made the following statement:

    "Too many schools have Baptist in their name but not in their doctrine. Some have drifted into liberalism and cultural relativism; still others remain orthodox, but have drifted toward non-Baptist reformed doctrine and cultural isolationism."

    Clearly Dr. Caner should be aware that throughout history Baptists have been both General, which he identifies Liberty with, and Particular or Reformed. I would hope, as a professor of church history, that Dr. Caner has read the Second London Confession of 1677 (Baptist) and other such documents. However, and sadly, Dr. Caner continues to attempt to say that the Baptist heritage and Reformed Theology don't go together. He has been refuted by the like of Dr. Tom Nettles, Dr. Tom Ascol, and Dr. James White (among others). When will Dr. Caner admit that the Baptist heritage is General and Reformed? When will he stop mis-informing his students about this very important matter? Hopefully very soon. Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary is a good school, with a lot going for it, but all of that can be for nothing if Dr. Caner continues this misinformation campaign.

    In fact, I think it was sad that one of the last public statements by Dr. Jerry Falwell reflected that he was in the same line of thinking as Dr. Caner has been and currently is. Sadly just one short month before his death Dr. Falwell would name Particular Atonement as heresy. Maybe, now that he is with the Lord, he has had his thinking cleared up on this very important matter.
     
    #3 Martin, Dec 19, 2007
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  4. Martin

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    ==Rippon, I was busy typing away on this point when you posted your reply. Needless to say I agree 100% with your statement. Hopefully a day is coming when more pastors and seminary professors will know the truth about Baptist history and Reformed theology.
     
  5. Martin

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    Dr. Caner's Educational Background and History

    Dr. Caner's historical ignorance is shocking considering his educational background:

    Doctor of Theology - University of South Africa
    Master of Theology - Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary

    Master of Divinity - Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
    MA in History - The Criswell College
    BA in Biblical Studies - University of the Cumberlands


    I suspect, but I am not 100% sure, that his MA/History is actually a MA/Historical Theology. I know that is the degree Criswell offers now. Does anyone know if Criswell ever did offer a MA/History? Either way, Dr. Caner should know his Baptist history better than he does.
     
    #5 Martin, Dec 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2007
  6. JDale

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    Rip:

    That's absolute bunk.

    The first Baptists, who formed the FIRST Baptist Church at Spitalsfield, England, lead by Thomas Helwys, were firm believers in the GENERAL ATONEMENT. Saying it ain't so don't make it any less true.

    And, if you're speaking of Southern Baptists in particular, they come from several streams -- one was certainly Calvinist in its soteriology -- but there was also a Revivalist stream that has always tended to Geneal Atonement...

    JDale
     
  7. JDale

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    Ya know -- I bet Dr. Falwell hasn't given this subject a second thought since he arrived in heaven. It's just not going to be as important when we enter the presence of Jesus...Unless one is a Calvinist, I suppose...

    :rolleyes:

    JDale
     
  8. EdSutton

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ed
     
  9. JDale

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    FTR -- Baptist history began with John Smyth and Thomas Helwys:

    John Smyth (c. 1570-1612) belonged to the General Baptists, a group that believed Christ's death applied to all who would accept it. This Baptist pioneer, in his "Twenty Articles" (1609), rejected Dort's theology as to irresistible grace: "men, of the grace of God through the redemption of Christ, are able (the Holy Spirit, by grace, being before unto them grace prevenient) to repent, to believe, to turn to God, and to attain the eternal life; so on the other hand, they are able themselves to resist the Holy Spirit, to depart from God, and to perish for ever" (art. 9).

    Thomas Helwys (1570c. 1616) in "A Declaration of Faith of English People Remaining at Amsterdam" (1611) repeated the teaching that human beings may receive or reject grace (art. 4) and went on to contradict Dort at two other points: predestination means that "all that believe in Him shall be saved," not that God has chosen a fixed number from eternity or has chosen some for damnation (art. 5), and true believers may fall from the grace of God and be lost (art. 7). The latter teaching of apostasy would be common among General Baptists.

    No doubt Southern Baptists had their genesis from BOTH General and Particular streams, but the Baptist tradition itself began as a non-Calvinist -- and in fact Arminian -- movement.


    JDale
     
  10. Martin

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    ==Certainly Baptists have Arminian and Calvinistic roots. My problem with the position of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary and its president Dr. Caner, is that they totally "brush off" the Calvinistic side as if it never existed. I have all of the Baptist Statements of Faith and there are plenty of Calvinist doctrinal statements as well as non-Calvinistic statements. Dr. Caner should know this historical fact. To act as if Baptist and Calvinist don't go together is simply not historical.
     
  11. Martin

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    Does anyone know if Criswell ever did offer a MA/History?

    I could try contacting them, but considering it is the Christmas season I doubt I would get a reply. Any help on this would be nice (after all this thread is primarily about schools and not Calvinism). The looking around I have done supports my belief that the MA/History degree listed in Dr. Caner's resume is actually a MA/Historical Theology. There is nothing wrong with a MA/Historical Theology but if that is what it is it should be listed as such. Either way Dr. Caner's historical errors are troubling.
     
    #11 Martin, Dec 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2007
  12. Paul33

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    John Calvin was also a non-calvinist. He believed that Jesus died indiscriminately for all and that those who persist in their unbelief are doubly condemned!

    The teaching that Jesus died only for the elect is heresy. It has absolutely no Scriptural support outside of the "system" that requires it. It is "theological" but not scriptural. John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 should disabuse any of the notion that Jesus died only for the elect.

    On the other hand, I wish Caner was more skillful and less combative in his pronouncements. Not all who go by the label of "reformed" believe in particular atonement. I happen to agree with Calvin and disagree with Calvinists on that point.
     
  13. Rippon

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    I have before me Curt Daniel's "The History And Theology Of Calvinism" . In his chapter on "Calvinistic Baptists" he says the following ( p.128,129 ) .

    It comes as a great shock to most Southern Baptists today that all of the founders and leaders of the Southern Baptist convention were , to a man , all emphatic and explicit five point Calvinists . Such included the following :
    (1) W.B. Johnson ( 1782 -1862 ). First President of the SBC .
    (2) Patrick H. Mell ( 1814-1888 ). President of the SBC for 17 years .
    (3) John L. Dagg ( 1794-1888 ). The first major SBC theologian . His 'Manuel of Theology' was the standard textbook of theology in all SBC seminaries .
    (4) Basil Manly ( 1798-1868 ) and Jr. ( 1825-1892 ). Leading founders and theologians in the SBC in its formative years .
    (5) John Broadus ( 1827-1895 ). The official SBC publisher , Broadman Press , gets its name from Broadus and Manly .
    (10) James Pettigru Boyce ( 1827-1888 ) . SBC President , founder and first President of Southern Baptist seminary . His 'Abstract of Systematic Theology' rivalled Dagg's as the leading SBC official textbook of theology .

    These are giants among Southern Baptists . And they were all emphatic Calvinists . They had no time or patience for Arminianism of any stripe . But what happened ? The change happened in the early 1900's when E.Y. Mullins (1860-1928 ) began to disseminate Arminian theology at Southwestern Seminary and in his 'The Christian Religion in Its Doctrinal Expression,' which eventually eclipsed Dagg and Boyce's textbooks in the seminaries . With the Fundamentalist/Modernist Controversy of the 1920's , Arminian Fundamentalism gained the upper hand . Some of them implied that Calvinism opened the door to modernism . In any case , Calvinism has been in retreat in the SBC ever since .

    [ At the close of his conclusion Dr. Daniel says ]: Those who are both Calvinist and Baptist argue that a large number of Calvinists have been Baptists and most Baptists before 1900 were Calvinists . But more importantly , they contend that theirs is the position most true to the Scriptures . They reformed the Reformation in the right direction .
     
  14. TCGreek

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    I'm particularly fond of John Broadus, and for the record, I'm proud to be a Calvinistic Baptist, in the same vein as CH Spurgeon.
     
  15. Martin

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    ==There are many historians and historical theologians who would take strong issue with everything you have said here. However, this thread is about Liberty and Dr. Caner and not about John Calvin
     
  16. JDale

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    It might surprise you -- but I agree. I wouldn't be quite as hard on Caner or Falwell as you might be though. Falwell's brand of "Baptist" can be traced back through his own Independent Fundamental Baptist days, to old Southern Baptist Revivalism -- which largely came from the General Baptist stream of heritage. So, in a sense, Liberty get's much of it's heritage from General Baptists. But you are right -- Baptists (especially Southern Baptists) can claim both as a heritage.

    One question, however -- If Calvinists can claim the SBC as a legitimate home, can't General (Arminian) Baptists do the same?

    JDale
     
  17. Phil310

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    I wonder what Jesus was...
     
  18. Rippon

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    Yes , I was speaking of the Southern Baptists in particular . Before 1900 the mighty river among SB'ers was Calvinistic , while a mere creek was Arminian . The Calvinistic river was the mainstream ( pardon the pun ) . IOW , it was the majority view among Southern Baptists .

    Now , after looking at my post # 13 -- are you willing to retract your "absolute bunk" remark ?
     
  19. Paul33

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    But not John Calvin!
     
  20. Rippon

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    Please take your mistaken notions with you to another thread -- you could start one -- I'll join in .
     

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