LifeWay private prayer language research disappointing

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Revmitchell, May 25, 2008.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    .........'For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit'

    Private prayer languages are a controversial issue among some Southern Baptists at this point in our history. The International Mission Board of Trustees (IMB) and the Trustees of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (SWBTS) have made it clear that private prayer languages are not to be countenanced among new employees of those institutions. Yet, a leading administrator of the IMB has publicly affirmed private prayer languages and a prominent trustee at SWBTS believes the denial of private prayer languages is unbiblical. And today, the administration of LifeWay, the old Baptist Sunday School Board, released a study by its new Research Division.

    The study, a statistical opinion survey, is titled, "Private Prayer Language and the Gift of Tongues: Protestant Pastors and Laity and Southern Baptist Seminary Graduates." It has been released, most intriguingly, right before the meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) in San Antonio, Texas, where the issue of private prayer languages promises to appear on the agenda from the floor. The timing of the study's release is problematic, but even more problematic is the study itself, both in methodology and in interpretation. For instance, with regard to methodology, some of the questions that are asked are woefully inadequate, and the fact that two surveys were combined into one report further complicates the picture. .............


    Article Here
     
  2. Bob Alkire

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    Much of some of there churches music has gone Pentecostal, some even doing Pentecostal dancing while singing, many have left hymns for many Pentecostal choruses, many messages are about reaching that ecstatic feeling. So why not go all the way and be SBC Pentecostal? I'll skip the ride.

    I don't think they can make up there mind or should I say there are a lot of churches which are going or trying to go to Calvinism and some trying to go Pentecostal and some are staying with the doctrine which they have had.
     
    #2 Bob Alkire, May 25, 2008
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  3. ajg1959

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    I agree Bob. The number of Charismatic Baptist Churches is steadily growing, and it starts with allowing the praise and worship music that began with the pentecostal churches into the church. I know that many argue that music is harmless, but when you let a little bit of charismatic practice enter the front door it grows like a fungus.

    It amazes me how the definition of a Baptist church has changed. When I was a kid you could enter almost any Baptist church and know what you are going to find.....but today, there are so many different apostate teachings and practices that you just dont know until you attend a service.

    Pop culture has infiltrated our churches, and this leads to charismatic practices also. Charismatics are very worldly in thier beliefs and pop culture is widely accepted as godly. They forget what the Bible says about hating the world and loving the things of God. Again, these Baptist churches start out compromising just a little bit and conforming to pop influence, and before you know it, they are in reality a pentecostal church.

    When need to stick to traditional styles of music and worship and not let the cancer of charismania corrupt our church.

    AJ
     
  4. Allan

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    I think both of you two need to do a little studying on the history of hymns. You'll find that what you consider hymns today, back when they were originally introduced, were considered by many to most what you are deeming charismatic regarding songs today.

    Scritpure teaches us to sing not only in hymns but songs, hymns, and spiritual songs. Sing a new song unto the the Lord. I agree the song should be reverent, doctrinally sound, but it should also be not be constrained to the likes and dislikes of personal opinion. A song that praises the Lord, brings honor and glory to His name, is biblically sound is not going to bring corruption into the churches because it is played faster than a hymnal. Sorry, you biblical bankrupt on those opinions.

    However, with due regard for the OP.

    It is a sad thing but it is not just localized to Southern Baptist (I know the OP isn't saying this, I'm just stating the obvious) but in all different types of Churches from other Baptists, Methodists and Lutherans to the even the Catholic churches as well. However, this is an area in which the Southern Baptists should make a stand on what we consider to be biblcal truth on the matter and not pretend like it isn't happening as many others do. It needs to be an issue that we establish so as to better identify where we stand as an association on the issue.
     
  5. ajg1959

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    I am well aware that some hyms like "Amazing Grace" were written to tunes of worldy songs, however, the style of music used back then wasnt invented as a form of rebellion like rock music was. In our culture, rock music is representative of s*x, drugs and rebellion, none of which are godly traits, so why copy them?

    Its not a matter of opinion, I grew up on 70's classic rock and in the flesh I have to admit that I love it....but I think its wrong because of the message it sends and the worldly sins it promotes. This style of music has no place in godly worship, regardless of my opinion of music styles.

    We can never be godly by immatating the world.

    As this applies to the OP, we would not be debating pentecostal/charismatic prayer languages in the Baptist church if we hadnt have started letting the worldly music in.

    AJ
     
  6. skypair

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    And I think it is coming from the seminaries. It's almost like when the universities of old turned against the traditions and values of our nation during Viet Nam. There was a new "crop" of young profs who were going to turn the nation on it's head with their social and political agenda.

    I think most congregations are trying to go along with this trend in order to keep their congregations "young and vibrant." But I can see where good sermons are not as important as good worship anymore and churches are trying to do what Dr Rogers used to call "their deepest work in our shallowest part," our emotions.

    I think he had a good understanding of the spirit of man (though he called it the "soul") -- man's intellect, emotions, and will. He realized that in order to make any eternal change of the will, that both emotions and intellect needed to be involved as they are in salvation itself. In fact, emotions usually follow intellect. Understanding leads to belief which leads to rejoicing, thankfulness, and permanent life-changing decisions.

    Emotions, on the other hand (and IMO), when not fully supported by understanding are "transferable" to SIMILAR intellectual models. Nobody could say it better than Jesus: "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mt 15:8-9

    This, in my opinion, is why the Baptist church is having such an influx of alternate sotierologies, eschatologies, and just plain lack of understanding of scripture coming into our midst.

    skypair
     
    #6 skypair, May 25, 2008
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  7. Bob Alkire

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    I don't think you know what is in my mind. If a song or hymn isn't doctrinally sound it isn't right. There are many hymns in many hymn books which are not doctrinally sound as well as many songs and choruses. I just was in a Baptist church (SBC) in NC and heard for 7 minutes help make a sanctuary out of me and I wasn't moving with the music so I got hit by the folks on my left as they were doing a dance I guess going right and then by the folks on my right as they were moving left. I was in a Pentecostal church back in the 50's that was doing the same stuff, different song. Last year here in Fl. I was at a church and they did about 15 minutes of yes Mary is the mother of Jesus and they were getting with it, as the young were saying in the late 50's they were rocking.
    Maybe I'm just old but I had never seen the dance in a church service or should I say in a Baptist church untill a few years ago.
    But you are correct on type of music and taste, that goes from person to person on their taste.

    I think you are correct.
     
    #7 Bob Alkire, May 25, 2008
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  8. JerryL

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    What Lifeway is figuring out is that most SBC members have no problem with the private prayer thing. It seems to come with the charasmatic influence that is being seen on TV. Just another thing that the higher ups are caving in to a "majority" just to keep the peace.
    I know of one of the seminarys that it isn't coming from, SBTS.
     
  9. rbell

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    Yes...God forbid we should enjoy music...funeral parlor expressions are much more appropriate... :rolleyes:

    Can't some of you see the difference between expressing joy and the pitfalls of charismatic theology? No one's arguing for "word of faith" stuff or tongues...but good grief.

    Of course it's opinion. And a non-sequitur besides. And devoid of Scriptural backing.

    Besides that, it's fine.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Let's get back on track guys. The op is about private prayer language and The problem with the survey taken by lifeway as well as the issue being raised at the convention next month.
     
  11. StefanM

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    The article is from 2007.
     
  12. canadyjd

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    I think Dr. Yarnell made valid points for analyzing the survey, and I agree with much of what he said. I wouldn't assume the pollsters were biased, however.

    As far as the ambiquity of the polls, it could be that scripture isn't as clear on the subject as Dr. Yarnell claims.

    Several years ago, the IMB held that anyone that had ever had a divorce couldn't serve as a missionary. I believe that stance is holding Christians to a higher standard than scriptures allow.

    This may be the same kind of issue. Is the SBC holding people to a higher standard than scripture allows? The Apostle Paul (under inspiration of Holy Spirit) gave instructions concerning the issue.

    I Cor. 14:27-28 "If anyone speaks in a tongue, by two or at the most three, and in turn, and let one interpret; (28) but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God."

    If God, through the Apostle Paul, has given us instructions concerning such a language, surely we can conclude it does exist.

    If scripture supports the idea that such a language exists, and God has even given us instructions concerning how to practice the langauge, isn't the SBC holding Christians to a higher standard than scripture allows?

    This is an issue where conscience and privacy and Christian liberty are the most important points, IMHO.

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #12 canadyjd, May 25, 2008
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  13. JerryL

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    It's not the gibberish you hear today that Paul was talking about, it was a known language, just not known to the speaker. When I hear someone talk in French,Japanese,Chinese or any other language not known to the speaker, I'll get onboard.
     
  14. donnA

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    The pastor once told me of a man he knows personally, who works in hispanic ministry, and when he forst started knew nothing of the spanish language, had never seen or even heard it before. Who walked into a class with a spanish bible and started reading it, and speaking fluent spanish. A language he has never learned, and he speaks it as palin and perfect as if he were born in a spanish speaking country.
    That is the biblical gift of tongues. Not sure we see that in many churches today. Today abuse of the biblical gifts is rampant in churches.
     
  15. canadyjd

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    Paul clearly addresses the issue of estactic utterances in I Cor. 12-14. He even references "tongues of men and of angels" in Chapter 13:1. Tongues of angels are not known languages among mankind.

    He makes various appeals to the Corinthians to curb the use of estactic utterances in the Church, of that there is no doubt. But he clearly allows for their use in private.

    That is why he mentions praying with the spirit but not with the mind (14:14-16). That is why he tells them not to speak without an interpretor in church, but to "speak to himself and to God".

    Christian liberty and Christian conscience are involved here.

    If the Apostle Paul, under the inspiration of Holy Spirit, did not deny the existence of such a language and gave instructions for its use, the SBC should not hold Christians to a higher standard than scripture allows.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  16. Bartimaeus

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    Private Prayer Language?

    The SBC churches have a very small jump from Sis. Mable Lee and her PPL to Bro. Benny comin' in to preach and teach and jump and HEAL, and after he jumps he jingles with all, I mean ALL their money.

    1) Why do those people who speak about the glorious gift of tongues today, still send their missionaries off to language school?
    2) Why do those people who say they speak in tongues today liken it to the "tongues of angels" (I Cor 13) and yet every single time, absolutely, as consistently as my mammie wore a bun on her head.....every angel in the holy Word of God spoke in the common venacular of the day, the very same language of the person the angel was speaking to?
    3) How can a person who says they have a PPL, not agree with all the other junk that comes down the pike from the charismatic position?

    There are quite a few good, sound folks on the board who are in good SBC churches who may end up coming out of the SBC if the majority maintains this course of activity. My prayers are with them.

    Bartimaeus
     
  17. JerryL

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    He is using a metaphor of eloquent speach, even if he speaks with all eloquence and knowledge, if he doesn't have love, it is useless. He isn't talking about angel language, the angels that appeared in the bible always talked in the language of the hearer. I'm all for Christain liberty, if someone wants to say "See me tie my bowtie" I'm all for getting a chuckle out of it, it just won't be in my Church, or I won't be there.
     
    #17 JerryL, May 25, 2008
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  18. Revmitchell

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    Pauls words were hyperbole. v. 22 Defines what tongues are.
     
  19. canadyjd

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    The Apostle Paul would not have distinguished between "tongues of men" and "tongues of angels" if they were not different languages. That angels spoke the languages of men does not change that.
    Because the scriptures allow for the PPL.
    They certainly should do what their conscience calls on them to do. I hope they study the Word of God and base their decisions on what God has revealed to us in His Word.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  20. canadyjd

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    If the words were hyperbole, Paul would not have given instructions for the use of such a language, emphasizing the private exercise of the gift.

    peace to you:praying:
     

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