Light Speed

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Phillip, Jun 6, 2003.

  1. Phillip

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    Hi folks, I've been gone a while, but only because I got to be the prime witness in a patent infringement suit where I was the inventor, but the company decided they didn't want to list me as the inventor. Boy, If you think the law is strange---get into patent law. It is incredible.

    Now----Here is my question?

    By the way, Hi Helen--maybe you can help me with this too.

    I am teaching a creation class at our church after convincing the preacher that we needed it. (nobody could understand why we should bother trying to explain what the Bible already says--while we send our students off to secular colleges, etc.)

    Dr. Setterfield's work on light speed is a good answer for me as far as how do we see stars that are "supposedly" millions of light-years away. Are there other theories regarding this same issue, or is this the only theory at this time. (I am not saying this is a bad theory, only that I have heard of other theories that I want to read about too.) Can anybody point me to some good articles on how we see light from distant stars (without the gap theory) and that vary from the change in light speed theory of which I am very "up" on because of the information Helen was so gracious to share with me.

    I am just trying to get overviews of what theories are out there now, so I don't sound stupid if I am asked.

    Thank you again, Helen, for not giving up on me until I realized that the gap theory could not have happened if death did not occur before sin. Otherwise, I wouldn't have this opportunity to teach this class. It has been a wonderful learning experience.

    Thank you, [​IMG]
     
  2. john6:63

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    Hello Phillip

    I think it’s awesome that you are going to teach a creation class at your church. Your class will find a renewed confidence in that Gods word is the absolute truth (John 17:17) and God cannot lie, or contradict this Truth (Titus 1:2). Your class will be able to witness to people who don’t believe the Bible and want real proof that God created this world.

    I pray that the Holy Sprit will guide you and your class!

    Since I don’t hold a PhD in astronomy here is an article from Answers in Genesis. I am biased and will read only Christian related material that will only confirm Gods word as truth!

    Answers in Genesis (Astronomy)
     
  3. Phillip

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    Thank you so much John6:63. You said just the right words to make my day. Thanks for the scriptures too. I am going to use them on the first day of the class. I am adding them in right now. What a good message.

    Have a great day! [​IMG]
     
  4. Helen

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    HI Phillip!

    Good to see you back. Hope all went well with your case!

    There are several creationist ideas about distant starlight. Here are a few I remember:

    1. Russ Humphreys' white hole cosmology
    -- you can get this on the link to AiG already given above.

    2. Universe created mature, with light already here from distant stars.

    3. There is a secular possibility, too, actually. Albrecht and Magueijo have published several papers now positing that light speed was about 10^60 times its current value at the inception of the universe. John Barrow thinks that the change in light speed took some time and did not happen instantly, as Albrecht and Magueijo have hypothesized. Although this is also a light speed idea, it is different from Barry's in many ways and maybe should be mentioned here. This would have also made the light from distant reaches available on earth very quickly.

    I looked at the AiG website. Some interesting stuff....

    For another view on both the star of Bethlehem and the Gospel in the Stars, however, check Barry's site at www.setterfield.org and go into the religion section.

    In the Research papers section you will find a lot of new stuff, and the Discussion section should help with a lot of other questions, too.

    God bless, and again, so good to see you back!
     
  5. Phillip

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    Thank you for the kind words Helen. Wow, I checked out your site and you and Barry have a LOT of great things there. I highly recommend for anybody to spend some time at www.setterfield.org -- In fact, I am printing out your response on Calvanism right now to pass along to my pastor who is having a problem with one of our church members in that area. I hope I have your permission to copy it. I didn't ask for a copyright, but I didn't think you would mind in this ONE case. :D

    I am tending to lean towards the Setterfield theory after reading all the information on it. There is too much that makes sense and like you say, even though there are differences, I too have heard discussions about light-speed slowing down in secular discussions. I simply wanted to know what other creationists are using in case I am asked "what happens if a theory turns out to be wrong?"

    This is off subject, but briefly the lawsuit is not over yet. One of the defense companies (sued by the plaintiff for patent infringement) settled out of court and I visited with them in California and they are interested in the possibility of using my new designs for the medical industry. (The Lord works in strange ways!) Anyway, the other defendant would not settle and on July 7 (please pray about it) we go to what's called a Markman hearing to determine the "scope" of the patent claims. The judge will then set the trial date for sometime probably in September, if the defendant does not win the Markman hearing. Get this: the defendant is using the fact that the claim in the patent uses the word "microprocessor" while the medical unit uses a "microcontroller", my lawyer thinks the judge will throw that out, I tend to agree. This has been so fascinating that I am actually taking the USPTO BAR exam so I can become a patent agent in October (not a lawyer, an agent) I can then file patents for people with the USPTO and represent them in every way except in an infringement case in court.
    Sorry, I got off track here, but we're here to talk, so I thought I would fill everybody in real quick.
    Thanks for all the good information. If anybody else wants to add their view, go ahead. If your not a creationist, don't bother. ;)
     
  6. Helen

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    Feel free to copy off anything you want, Phillip. One of the reasons we are putting the stuff on the net is to make it available to people. Since we have all the originals, if someone tries to change something on our website, it's easy enough to prove what we really wrote!

    I just sat down here at the computer again to check Barry's new paper on mass. I'll proof it for grammar, flow, internal consistency, that sort of thing, and then it gets sent to some physicists who review for us and then submitted. Things are 'hotting up' as we have received invitations now to speak in Idaho, and, this autumn, back east in several places. I guess it's time for me to learn how to put together one of these speaking tours!

    And I thought my retirement age would be puttering in the garden, taking care of my retarded son, being a grandmama, and helping out at church -- that sort of thing.

    God must have been chuckling.... [​IMG]

    July 7 -- of course we will be praying for you.
     
  7. Phillip

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    Yes, and you are loving every bit of it, I bet!
    That is right down your alley. :D

    Thank you very much for the prayers, you and your family are in ours.
     
  8. mdkluge

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    Helen wrote:
    Any time frame for its being put up on the web in the unlikely event that the article is rejected for publication by one or more Journals? Also a suggestion: When you do put it on the web, could you please identify it as the articlle submitted to and rejected by n Journals, identifying whatever positive integer n might happen to be? I was a little bit confused last time and didn't reaslize that he web article I was reading was the one that had been submitted to three Journals.
     
  9. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;I am tending to lean towards the Setterfield theory after reading all the information on it.&lt;&lt;&lt;

    I wonder if you will tell your class about the degree of acceptance of the Setterfield theory, namely that it has not been published even in a creationist journal. Secondly that many creationists do not accept it. Thirdly that it has no acceptance at all in mainstream science.
     
  10. Paul of Eugene

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    You could have interested members of your class look at the discussion on Setterfield theory right here on this board! That way you can avoid having to remember all the details of the argument both ways. But I write this on Sunday Afternoon already you've probably had your lesson . . .
     
  11. Phillip

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    Most of my class is 60 and older. I am simply filling in for the "regular" teacher and I am teaching subject areas that I know best. Our educational minister wants more training in the area of the Creation, especially for youth and young adults.

    The class I'm teaching has the attitude: "Well, the Bible says six days, what's the argument?" So, it is a difficult class to teach and right now getting into light speed theories is a bit much for them. We can do that with the younger groups. I am simply using this as a practice session because the older adults are not judgemental. They were very interested in what Genesis said about seperating the water above from the water below and my charts on life-expectancy to the flood and then after the flood.

    Beyond that, too much science and the snoring got too loud.

    We discussed a few signs of "design" in the universe, including inside individual living cells. They seemed to really enjoy that. If I were too teach a younger, more scientific "aware" group, I would mention that many of our observations result in Theories which may or may not be proven wrong as we strive for the truth, but the Bible will hold its accuracy forever. [​IMG]
     
  12. Phillip

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    Hi Peter101,
    I will always mention that science is based on observations and that theories that have been held solid for many years are often proven wrong when our technology reaches that stage.

    In my line of work, I have to be in contact with a lot of researchers and scientists and one thing I have learned; there truly are NO mainstream theories and it all depends on "who" you are talking to and how much background they have on a particular subject.

    In science, it is sad that to become "accepted" depends on how many papers you can get published. That originates in the academic world. In the world I live in "engineering & design" it depends on getting the job done with a "workable" product, forget the publications. So, I don't hold it against (or for) any scientist that has not been published. That simply relates to how well "connected" they are with the "few mainstream scientists" that hold a world viewpoint. It IS SAD; however, that scientists like Dr. Setterfield have to fight this secular, uphill political battle to obtain acceptance. I do not require that to study his papers and make my own conclusions based on what I read. Sorry! ;)
     
  13. john6:63

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    In addition, it isn’t the problem of belief for most scientists, but rather the lack of willingness to accept information that challenges their long-held positions. While most scientist can see the strong evidence supporting the Bible, they cannot bring themselves to accept the inevitable conclusion, b/c it would require them to abandon their previously held agnostic position to which they are emotionally and intellectually committed to within the scientific community for fear of being rejected and losing “status” as “somebody” within their community.

    Many scientists have a huge investment in their declared position of rejecting the Bible as the inspired word of God. They feel threaten when faced with overwhelming evidence, which supports this fact! It will require them to seriously think about God and his responsibility to Him. Unfortunately scientists who feel this way are blindly leading the agnostic community like a flock of sheep to their ultimate punishment for their sinful rebellion, when they are exiled to hell forever.
     
  14. Phillip

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    Amen, brother, you couldn't have said it any better. I have met too many scientists who don't have big reputations to uphold who are NOT athiests and believe in the creation. This proves your point. Your viewpoint of scientists seems to occur at a much greater level when you are talking about "college and university" (academics) professors and researchers. I have seen less of it when working with scientists (who are just as smart if not smarter, who work in industry where they are not judged on their publications, but on their assistance to engineers with the theoretical aspects that we need to turn into real-world items (for instance--the Global Positioning System).

    Of course, many may not know it, but this was the reason for the big overthrow of Liberals by the Conservatives in the SBC when several SBC members realized that our Baptist schools were teaching evolution and were "loaded" with non-Bible believing scholars. A lot of teachers got fired over that one. As far as I'm concerned, it was their choice. I would imagine there is still some house-cleaning needed in some of our universities.
     
  15. The Galatian

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    I used to recruit for my company. One of the schools I went to was Baylor.

    And there, they teach evolution.

    In Texas, at least, there are a great many Baptists who recognize that Evolution and God's creation are perfectly compatible.
     
  16. Helen

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    No, Galatian, they only HOPE it is; and they are wrong.
     
  17. Don

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    D. Russell Humphries also wrote a book a few years back called "Starlight and Time"; might want to check that one out if you can find it.
     
  18. Phillip

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    Forum leader, you may delete this post---it was an accident. The following post covers the subject.
    Thank you!
     
  19. Phillip

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    I know that it is your back-ground, but you sure have a way with words.

    I don't think Galatian realizes the changes happening at Baylor. The SBC is going a long way in cleaning up their colleges from liberal influence. Most of the colleges would rather not loose their money than keep their liberal viewpoints.

    Besides, I don't know why a person bothers to believe in evolution and the Bible, too. They are like oil and water. ;)
     
  20. The Galatian

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    Helen with regard to Baptists at Baylor U. recognizing the fact of evolution:
    They are swayed by the evidence, Helen. So simple denial isn't going to do you much good.

    More than you suspect.

    When the fundamentalists took over and installed a "stealth creed", Texas Baptists largely rebelled. Baylor carefully restructured it's board to keep the SBC from controlling the school.

    Moderates are in the majority, and are likely to remain so. Not long ago, they even started to permit dancing on campus.

    And when Dembski got a bit too strange with the Polyani Center, Baylor reined him in, too.

    Baylor is largely financed by Baptists who are Texans. And they don't much care to be told what to do.

    It's the only logically consistent way for a Christian.

    In fact, God and reality are perfectly compatible.
     

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