Limited Atonement

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by soninme, Sep 8, 2009.

  1. soninme

    soninme
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    Limited Atonement is a doctrine offered in answer to the question, "for whose sins did Christ atone?" The Bible teaches that Christ died for those whom God gave him to save (John 17:9). Christ died, indeed, for many people, but not all (Matthew 26:28). Specifically, Christ died for the invisible Church -- the sum total of all those who would ever rightly bear the name "Christian" (Ephesians 5:25).

    I was just wondering , if christ died for all , why does the scripture in Matthew 26:28 say "Many" instead of "All" .................?

    Matthew 26:28This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
     
  2. billwald

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    If God/Jesus intended for every person to be saved and it doesn't happen then why are God/Jesus' intentions more valuable than my intentions?

    The Bible specifically names at least one person who is NOT saved, Judas E. This eliminates any theory of universal salvation. Universal less one is not universal. But this is not a logical reason to demand that every person who does not agree with (my denomination, my conclusions) is going to Hell. Doesn't compute that because we know for sure that one (or ten) out of a billion is going to Hell that 90% (or 50%) of every billion are going to Hell.

    In other words, the null condition is "saved" unless one demonstrates that one is NOT saved. Why? Because God has not given us a list of the saved nor an absolute method of sorting the sheep from the goats. God can "save" anyone "in" Christ Jesus.

    The pragmatic advantage of this hypothesis is that we no longer have a warrant to tell people that they are going to Hell unless they agree with us. We can welcome ANY person into our local church who wants to fellowship with us and leave the eternal stuff to the Holy Spirit.
     
  3. Hawkins

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    I think the point is that, God's own sacrifice can (by Law) atone for unlimited sins for unlimited humans to be saved.

    Number is never an issue. Whether men are wise enough to accept Jesus Christ is the issue.
     
  4. trustitl

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    Perhaps to see if we would sit around and debate such things.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    The question presumes more specificity in "many" than is intended in the text.

    Rom 5:12 Through Adam's sin - all became sinners
    Rom 5:19 "the many were made sinners".

    1John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World".

    1John 4:14 God sent "His Son to be the Savior of the World".

    The Atoning sacrifice made at the cross - was sufficient for all mankind -- the whole world.

    He is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance -- 2Peter 3

    Jesus is the "light that coming into the world enlightens EVERY man" John 1

    The problem in the Calvinist model is that it is not careful to note that the atoning sacrifice completed at the cross was sufficient for all mankind -- "the whole world" in all of time.

    In Lev 16 the "Atoning Sacrifice" is prefigured in the sacrifice of "the Lord's goat" by the High Priest on the "Day of Atonement".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. webdog

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    All people are not many people? I would say trillions of people fit quite nicely into "many".
     
  7. zrs6v4

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    Wouldnt it be unjust for Jesus to die for a persons sins who never gets saved? if this happened then wouldnt God be unjust to punish Jesus for that persons sins and pour His wrath out on Jesus along with doing it a second time to that person for the same sins? this would be double payment and doesnt make sense to me.. this is only one aspect of the argument.
     
  8. billwald

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    http://www.ukapologetics.net/08/puntbookreview.htm

    Neal Punt makes the best sense. He basically says the proper term should be "limited condemnation," all are saved except those whom the Bible specifically states will be lost, Judas for example.

    I think right from the start of the organized church the "money trail/power trail" ruled. One can't get rich by preaching "Jesus dies for all the sins of all of you."
     
  9. HankD

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    Theorectically speaking, I don't think so zrs.

    God makes the rules, He does whatever He wants whether we think it is just or not.

    Psalm 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

    Also His ways are not our ways and the way He thinks is incomprehensible to us.

    Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    Here is an aside:
    While I am not a Universalist, here is another Scripture which they use to support their teaching.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    My take on this verse is that Jesus' salvation is sufficient for all men should all men believe. Those who do actually believe are the "many" of Matthew 26.


    HankD​
     
  10. Jedi Knight

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    John 1:12 But as MANY as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: I think this complements the MANY His blood was shed for.
     
  11. BobRyan

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    in Matt 7 the MANY are lost -- the FEW are saved.

    In 1John 2:2 Christ is the atoning sacrifice "not ONLY for OUR sins (those who are the saved) but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

    Hard to miss. FEW are saved by ALL are covered by the atoning sacrifice of the Gospel -- they simply need to choose to accept it. Those who reject - are rejecting the path of life and salvation freely offerred to them.

    Alternative to that - would be the "classic Calvinist scenario" in heaven -- as we all know.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. rbell

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    Were you planning on making any remotely Biblical points?
     
  13. rbell

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    Yeah, I'm sure that if you can't find something in the Scriptures you like...you can always find something from a theologian.

    I'm not even going to pretend to understand the above quote. I'm assuming it's yet another slam on the Church (and maybe the Scriptures)...but with billwald, who knows?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    The point being that God is claiming to have done much more than dying for the "FEW of Matt 7" in the texts above.

    I think we can all see that.

    Which makes limited atonement ideas - a huge problem when it comes to scripture.

    And by limited atonement -- the real meaning is limited grace, limited love, limited gospel -- limited to "the FEW" of Matt 7.

    Instead of that model - the bible presents "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" not "God so loved the FEW".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. RAdam

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    Surely you realize that world means many things in scripture. God so loved the world in John 3:16. Is that the same world that Jesus said He wasn't praying for in John 17:9. Perhaps that's the same world that hates Him and those whom He has chosen from John 15:19. Perhaps it's the same world that John tells us not to love in 1 John. And let's not forget that the bible says that all the world has gone after Him. Obviously world can mean several different things. The assumption that the world spoken of in John 3:16 means every single human in existence is a bad one, especially in light of the fact that the bible says there are some that God doesn't love but in fact hates.

    There are many scriptures that prove particular redemption and destroy universal atonement, but here is perhaps the strongest - John 17:2: "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." Jesus, praying to the Father, first states that He has power over all flesh. Then He says that is to this end, that He might given eternal life to a group of people describes this way: as many as thou hast given him. You just can't around that. He is going to give eternal life to those the Father gave Him, that number and no more. There was a people given from Father to Son to save. In John 6 Jesus says He came down from heaven to save this group of people, that none would be lost but that they would be raised up at the last day. Jesus came to die for these people, not for Judas who was a devil.
     
  16. billwald

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    > John 17:2: "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."

    God can regenerate (save) anyone "in" Christ Jesus. For 5,000 years God didn't give anyone in North, Central, South America, New Zeland, or Australia to Jesus?
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

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    Ahh...that then begs the question WHO it is that God gives to Christ, and whether or not one can prove from these passages that THESE are elected conditionally or unconditionally. At any rate, neither passage destroys universal atonement or proves particular atonement only.

    The writer of Hebrews stated Christ "tasted death for everyone" (2:9), not just for everyone of the elect.
     
    #17 Doubting Thomas, Nov 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2009
  18. RAdam

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    Who is it that God has given to Christ? Interestingly, the section of scripture you used to try to disprove particular redemption says exactly who God gave Christ.

    First of all, the text that you referred to is speaking of that moment when Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. The text goes on to explain that this was for, or by, the suffering of death to the end that He should taste death for every man. Now many latch on to that last part but fail to keep reading. The next few texts read like this: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

    Now that was a lot of scripture, but it was important to look at the whole passage, because it is all interconnected. You see the word "for" a lot, meaning that the scripture is explaining itself further, connecting itself together. This section of scripture is really explaining why Jesus took on Himself human nature and suffered on the cross. It was to "taste death for every man." But, then the scripture goes on to explain that He was bringing many sons unto glory, that He is the captain of their (the sons brought unto glory) salvation, and that He was made perfect through suffering (that suffering being that of the cross). Now, the scripture goes on to say that He is not ashamed to call these sons brethren, and even identifies them as the children which God gave Him. Who did God give Christ? He gave Him children, the sons brought unto glory, the every man Christ tasted death for. You see how these texts are talking about what Christ did on the cross and why He did it. He took on Himself the nature of His brethren, that He might destroy death for them and deliver them from the bondage they were held under. It was their sins He made reconciliation for. When Christ tasted death for every man He did so for the cause that they wouldn't, to the end that they would be brought unto glory and freed from death and him that had the power of death. This is why He was made flesh and suffered. The every man He suffered for are the children given Him, to whom He gives eternal life, of whom He will not lose one but raise them up again. He didn't taste death for Judas Iscariot who was and is a devil, who betrayed Him, who it would have been better for him had he not been born. He died for God's people, the ones given Him, to the end that not one would be lost.
     
  19. RAdam

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    I don't really understand your question. The text I quoted says that God had given (past tense) people to Christ.
     
  20. Amy.G

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    :laugh:Don't worry. No one else understands him either.


    Question to you, did God limit the atonement for Israel?
     

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