Lordship Required for Salvation??

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Oct 2, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

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    Romans 10:9-10 implies "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

    When I was saved, I confessed Jesus as Savior. Didn't even know what a "lord" was or meant.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. TaterTot

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    I didnt either. But someone faithfully discipled me and then I understood. After I committed my heart to Him. Thats why the process of salvation is a process, I guess!
     
  3. James_Newman

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    There is a dualism of salvation in the bible. That verse is not referring to your eternal salvation at the great white throne. Righteousness is never a requirement for a believer to be washed in the blood.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    James, If that verse is not talking about eternal salvation then it is not talking about salvation at all.

    Bob, Here is the question another way. If someone wants to be saved, but is unwilling to give up known sin, can they be saved? For instance, a guy comes and understands his sinfulness and Christ's death and righteousness and desires to be saved. He is living with his girlfriend and says "I know it is sin to continue in that condition, but I won't give it up. I will just get saved."

    Can that be true salvation?
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    Salvation and regeneration are one-time events, all of God, none of man.

    Conversion, on the other hand, is a process and continous.

    The purpose of the gospel is primarily to teach and make disciples (learners) of men, to bring life and immortality already possessed, to light.

    Lordship salvation is another man-made invention that further erodes the simplicity that is in Christ.

    Jesus Christ IS Lord whether the heathen acknowledge Him now or not, and whether His people know it already, or not.

    Just as many ways preached to heaven by such religion founders as Buddha and Mohammed does not in any way make false Jesus' statement that He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life.
     
  6. gb93433

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    I think we must understand the context of that verse within its historical context. When someone named Christ as Lord, the emperor could have had them executed. By naming Christ as Lord meant they were renouncing the emperor as their lord. Today in the U.S. we do not have that same context. So it would be much more difficult to understand and comprehend that situation.
     
  7. James_Newman

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    It is talking about being saved at the judgment seat of Christ. We are never told we must confess Jesus as lord to have the gift of eternal life. Jesus himself said to believe on Him, and we would be raised up on the last day. There is a 1000 year kingdom before the last day. If we would be partakers of that inheritance with Christ, we must partake in His suffering, and overcome sin in this life. When we stand before the throne and our works are burned, we will suffer loss. That loss will be the loss of our part in the kingdom.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    How do you know that? The context mentions no such thing. The context is talking about salvation from sin, and the righteousness of Christ without which there is no salvation. Clearly, the preceding and following verses contrast the saved and the unsaved.

    Except for this verse, Acts 16:31, and a host of passages that teach the concept.

    And who is he? He is the Lord. How you can "believe on him" without believing who he is? There are some that want to separate the person of Christ (Lord) from the work of Christ (Savior). You do not have one without the other.
     
  9. gb93433

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    Then how would you interpret Romans 10: 8-13?

    Romans 10:8-13, "But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
     
  10. James_Newman

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    There is believing that goes beyond believing the simple message of the gospel. All this is written to believers. You stopped short of verse 14, which plainly makes that clear.

    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Anyone who believes on Christ will be raised up on the last day, that is a promise that cannot be affected by man's righteousness. It never had anything to do with our works of righteousness, it is all about Christ's finished work on the cross. Once the Jews believe on Christ as their saviour, then they can continue in faith unto righteousness. Christs blood not only paid the full price of our sin, but it also gives us power to overcome sin in this life. If we believe that, we can overcome. If we do not overcome, it is probably because we do not believe. If we do not overcome, we will not be able to stand at the judgement seat of Christ. The confession spoken of here is more likely talking about the confession of Christ under threat of persecution, the opposite of denial, not some commandment to shout 'I confess Christ is my Lord' to get saved.

    Matthew 10:33
    But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Peter denied Christ three times. Is peter saved?
     
  11. gb93433

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    Denial was a part of the early church and along with that was repentance.

    The confession was with in the context of probable persecution and execution.

    Confession always follows belief. The confession was public not a "closet christianity". The early church did not hide its profession of faith. It was not a one time come forward and get baptized so you will know you are saved event.

    It was much ike a baby knows what to instinctively when it is born. So does the person who is born again. But just as a baby will die if it is not nourished and guided along the way in its life so does the new believer when a church is too lazy to follow up on that new believer. Too often discipleship is left to chance by the disobedient people who ignore their personal and corporate responsibility of discipling those new believers. Too often they are more interested in statistics rather than being spent for the kingdom.
     
  12. James_Newman

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    Denial was a part of the early church and along with that was repentance.

    The confession was with in the context of probable persecution and execution.

    Confession always follows belief. The confession was public not a "closet christianity". The early church did not hide its profession of faith. It was not a one time come forward and get baptized so you will know you are saved event.

    It was much ike a baby knows what to instinctively when it is born. So does the person who is born again. But just as a baby will die if it is not nourished and guided along the way in its life so does the new believer when a church is too lazy to follow up on that new believer. Too often discipleship is left to chance by the disobedient people who ignore their personal and corporate responsibility of discipling those new believers. Too often they are more interested in statistics rather than being spent for the kingdom.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I think denial and confession are going to be big players in the Christian walk here again in the near future. Just because we arent being actively persecuted right now, does not mean that we won't be very soon. Christians are being persecuted in other countries, while we stuff our faces and watch our televisions. When the knock on the door comes in the middle of the night, maybe we will have to start re-examining a lot of our theology. When we tell new converts that they need to march into the middle of town and tell everyone that the just found Jesus, we may not get any new converts.
     
  13. gb93433

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    I think you are right. We will see many churches flee like flies being chased and many will be surprised at who stands. Look at who followed Jesus in the gospels.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    How can you say this is written to believers? The chapter plainly says differently. It talks of those who tried to be righteous apart from Christ. Those are unbelievers. It talks of those who need to confess Christ as Lord and believe in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead. Those are clealry unbelievers.

    Which is exactly the point of v. 4. They did not accept Christ's rightoueness; they went about establishing their own. Instead, they need to "confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God has raised him from the dead." They need to "call on the name of the Lord for salvation."

    True, but not the point of the passage at all.

    Right. If you do not overcome, then you are not saved. That is the picture John uses in Revelation in the messages to the churches. Those who overcome will have eternal life.

    But that is not what the passage is talking about at all.

    Yes. Peter repented. It is possible for a believer to deny Christ at a point in time. But the evidence of salvation is that they repent of it, as Peter did. But Romans 10 is not about that topic at all. I cannot understand for the life of me where you are getting that from. You are denying the teaching of the passage in order to protect a pet doctrine, it seems to me.

    When the passage says "Confess Jesus as Lord" for salvation, then I think we ought to preach and teach that. We ought not to redefine it to avoid it.
     
  15. APuritanMindset

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    Which means we need to take all the more seriously calling Christ Lord. By not admonishing our people when they come to get saved that Christ must be Lord of their lives, we have probably created MANY false converts.

    When Jesus says that the wide gate leads to destruction and that the narrow gate leads to salvation, and few find it, we need to make sure we take Him seriously and make sure we aren't giving our people a broad way of salvation.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    I agree with James Newman. There are either two kinds of salvation spoken of in the Bible and these are eternal and timely, or one salvation with two aspects, eternal and timely.

    The jews spoken of here are not reprobates, or unelect Jews. These are elect Jews who have the word of faith almost in their mouth. Romans 10:8 clearly says:
    "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, &lt;b&gt;which we preach;&lt;/b&gt; ". These are Jews with a zeal for God, but &lt;b&gt; not according to knowledge. Paul wanted to reach them and direct their knowledge to the true God and to the true doctrine, which knowledge saves them from the corruption of wrong doctrine, the same thing Paul tells his protege, Timothy:

     
  17. APuritanMindset

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    I beg to differ. A truly regenerate individual will show signs of a change being wrought in their life. Check out this verse from 1 John.

    If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For the person who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 1 John 4:20 (HCSB)

    I think the point the author is making here is that if someone doesn't show something outward after conversion than they weren't really converted. Matthew Henry would agree:

     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    APM said:

    Then Solomon, Noah, and Lot all were not regenerate.

    I will agree that there are changes in a regenerate individual's life, dear brother, for the Bible has many verses that say so, and I will go further to say that these changes will happen whether or not a preacher does what Paul had wanted to do to the elect Jews whose zeal for God is not according to knowledge, and that is teach them.

    What I am really saying is that to make a professing Christian's life the basis for saying that he is indeed a child of God and has Jesus as his Lord is not necessarily always a reliable yardstick.
     
  19. APuritanMindset

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    That I will agree with you on ;)
     
  20. James_Newman

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    How can you say this is written to believers? The chapter plainly says differently. It talks of those who tried to be righteous apart from Christ. Those are unbelievers. It talks of those who need to confess Christ as Lord and believe in their hearts that God has raised him from the dead. Those are clealry unbelievers.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Romans 10
    1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    The entire book of Romans is written to believers. The point being is that the salvation he is talking about is a salvation that ONLY applies to believers. You cant confess anything until you believe. You can't call on the name of the Lord until you believe. He wants Israel to be saved in the same sense that he wants every other believer to be saved. But they have to believe first.

    Which is exactly the point of v. 4. They did not accept Christ's rightoueness; they went about establishing their own. Instead, they need to "confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God has raised him from the dead." They need to "call on the name of the Lord for salvation."
    </font>[/QUOTE]Once someone believes, they have been born again. There is no confession involved in being born again. If they are born again, they will be raised up on the last day. Thats the gift. The salvation he is talking about here is the salvation for a son of God.
    True, but not the point of the passage at all.

    Right. If you do not overcome, then you are not saved. That is the picture John uses in Revelation in the messages to the churches. Those who overcome will have eternal life.

    But that is not what the passage is talking about at all.

    Yes. Peter repented. It is possible for a believer to deny Christ at a point in time. But the evidence of salvation is that they repent of it, as Peter did. But Romans 10 is not about that topic at all. I cannot understand for the life of me where you are getting that from. You are denying the teaching of the passage in order to protect a pet doctrine, it seems to me.

    When the passage says "Confess Jesus as Lord" for salvation, then I think we ought to preach and teach that. We ought not to redefine it to avoid it.
    </font>[/QUOTE]We need to rightly divide. If we have people trusting in their confession for their eternal salvation, we are making a grave mistake. They need to believe and rest in the blood to take care of their sin. Once that blood has been applied to them as a believer, they should indeed be striving for the reward of the kingdom, which is called a salvation. More often than not, the bible is speaking of this second salvation for a believer, not our initial salvation in eternity by believing. The entirety of the bible is written to believers, an unbeliever will gain little through resisting sin and confessing Jesus is his lord, especially if he doesn't believe that Jesus is God and that His blood paid the price for his sins in eternity.

    Theres not really any other way to reconcile the doctrine of salvation as a free gift, and salvation as a reward for works. Some people think that salvation is a balance between the two, others go to either extreme, ignoring verses that seem to teach the opposite.

    I see two distinct salvations. A free salvation by grace, not of works, a gift given to all who believe. Then there is another salvation set before the believer, also by grace, but this time it is by God's grace working THROUGH you. His grace gives us the power to overcome sin.
     

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