Lordship Salvation Defended

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Jan 11, 2015.

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  1. evangelist6589

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    Luke 3:8
    8 “Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

    2 Cor 5:17
    17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

    Gal 2:20
    20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

    Rom 6:6
    6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

    1 John 2:3
    3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

    John 15:14
    14 “You are My friends if you do what I command you.

    Mt 12:50
    50 "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

    John 8:31
    31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

    Rom 6:17-18
    17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

    1 John 2:4
    4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
     
  2. matt wade

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    I think it would be wise to define Lordship Salvation, as you see it.
     
  3. DHK

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    "Lordship Salvation" given its current definition, can't be defended.
    Can you "make" Christ Lord? Can you "make" him Lord of even of your life?
    The question is absurd! He is Lord of all whether you like it or not!
    To assume that you can command God to do anything is absurd. Who are you to command the Lord of lords to "be the Lord" of anything, including you. He already is. He has the right to lift you up and squash you like a peanut stepped on by an elephant. He is Lord of all. You don't command the Lord to be Lord, even of you.
    Even asking him won't do any good. He is Lord. Your obedience won't make him Lord for He already is; your disobedience certainly can't dethrone Christ from being Lord. Is there any unsaved person who by persistent rejection of Christ, will dethrone Christ. No, not at all. He is Lord of all, and always will be.

    So what is this vain philosophy about "making Christ Lord of your life?
    You cannot make Christ do anything. He is Lord whether you like it or not!
    The question is: will you submit to Him as your Lord.
    The question is one of submission.

    Submission is a life-long process called sanctification. You quoted some verses, some that indicate that process and some that don't.
    For example: 2Cor.5:17 doesn't. We are new creatures in Christ does not indicate submission. It indicates that we are new creatures, new creations.
    After that there is the matter of submission. Submission is a life-long process. It is never fully attained, at least not in this life. We will never be perfect.
     
  4. Aaron

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    This doesn't happen often, but DHK nailed it. :thumbs:

    Jesus IS Lord. He is Lord not only of believers, but of unbelievers as well.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Yes, but some believers do not treat Him as Lord!

    And there is an entire group of TV preachers, and their followers, who make Him their fetch-it-man! You know, the Word of Faith people!
     
    #5 OldRegular, Jan 11, 2015
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  6. Marooncat79

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    Paul says in Acts 20:21 that he taught repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
     
  7. JonC

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    I believe that you cannot deal with Christ as Lord and Christ as Savior as if they are separate things (in salvation, you can’t have one without the other). But I’m having trouble following your “defense.” Are you implying that a time of disobedience denies the Lordship of Christ in one’s life (if a person disobeys a command then they are not saved)?
     
  8. Van

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    Lets back up and discuss some basics.

    1) When we put our faith in Jesus Christ, does that include committing wholeheartedly, that we will strive to make Him Lord of our life? This does not mean we are making Jesus do something, it means we are striving to submit to Christ, to keep His commandments, to faithfully serve Him. My answer is yes.

    2) Thus a changed life is evidence of being born anew by God, aided by our indwelt Helper. But our "works" do not save us positionally, i.e. sustain our transfer from the realm of darkness into the Kingdom of God. But by good works, after being born anew, we do earn rewards, and thus enter heaven "abundantly." Those whose "works" are off the mark, i.e. burned up, still enter heaven, but as one escaping from a fire.

    3) But these "mislead" folks are still striving to serve Jesus, just in an inappropriate way, so they are probably saved.

    4) Now folks who walked an aisle, but never wholeheartedly committed, would not be set apart in Christ, if God did not credit that superficial faith as righteousness. So the initial commitment, as credited by God is a requirement of salvation.

    5) But what about those who went out from us, after saying all the right things, and doing all kinds of service within the church? They were probably not saved, because they went out from us because they were not "of" us, meaning actually born anew.

    Bottom line, works, visible to the fruit inspectors among us, does not save us, or sustain our salvation, but does provide evidence that we are committed to Christ wholeheartedly.

    I guess my view is "lordship" provides evidence of salvation, but is no guarantee, as the folks of Matthew 7 found out.
     
    #8 Van, Jan 11, 2015
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  9. PreachTony

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    Right, those who treat God as a type of ATM for blessing and prosperity. Now there's something (the prosperity gospel) that makes me sick...
     
  10. JamesL

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    The most common form of Lordship Salvation has a heretical view of faith, one which redefines (then misplaces) faith.

    It's evident in their argument that without submission, obedience, devotion - i.e. Lordship, all one has is "mental assent to facts"

    What that means is the two kinds of faith (saving and spurious) should be defined as such:

    Spurious faith - mental assent to facts
    Saving faith - mental assent to facts, then obey based on the facts

    But where is hope? Where is dependence upon Christ? Where is the promise to the one who worketh not? Where is relying upon the One who died for the ungodly?

    In Lordship Salvation, that kind of confidence and inner assurance comes from works-based introspection.

    It's a handy way of relying upon one's own works for justification, then a shallow attempt to give credit to God by saying He's working in them. But the whole time, they're looking at their own performance.

    It's cheap grace at its worst, one that fosters a self righteousness exceeded by very few.
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

    http://www.gty.org/resources/articles/A114/An-Introduction-to-Lordship-Salvation


    Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.

    First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Pet. 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.

    Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Eph. 2:1-5,8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Phil. 1:6; cf. Heb. 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.
    Lordship SalvationThird, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Cor. 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.

    Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Cor. 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Gal. 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Rom. 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.
    Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3; Rom. 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.
    Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Rom. 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.
    Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Pet. 1:8-9; Rom. 8:28-30; 1 Cor. 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality. Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.
    Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Cor. 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.
     
    #11 Iconoclast, Jan 11, 2015
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  12. The Biblicist

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    These texts do not prove Lordship Salvation. They prove only that a person who has been saved has had an inward transformation, but they do not prove that this inward transformation has any set STANDARD revealed in outward manifestation nor does it prove that this inward transformation is always outwardly manifested effectually. Progressive sanctification is namely that "progressive" and there is NO STANDARD of outward transformation simply because that depends wholly upon the MEASURE OF GRACE and MEASURE OF FAITH God is pleased to provide. So the outward manifestation could vary as greatly between Abraham to Lot in outward manifestation.

    The child of God does not always walk after the Spirit. The inner struggle with sin (Rom. 7:14-25) is as much as the battle against sin as is the external manifestation of overcoming. in that struggle. It is our "faith" that already has overcome the world (1 Jn. 5:4-5) whereas, Paul clearly hypothesizes a person being saved "even as by fire" withoutsomuch of a single reward in heaven for manifest overcoming by good works (1 Cor. 3:15). Justification is EQUAL between all saints because it is based upon the SINLESSS Substitutionary STANDARD provided in Christ, but sanctification is NOT EQUAL between all saints because it is based upon God's good pleasure according whatever MEASURE of grace and faith He provides to obtain whatever degree of sanctification He determines before the world began (Eph. 2:10b). Lordship salvation is the vain attempt to make both EQUAL and it is simply not true.

    Does that remove our responsibility to walk even as Christ walked? No, but no human being will ever EQUALLY walk as Christ walked. So progressive sanctification is ALWAYS INCOMPLETE and always at various degrees and NEVER equal to the righteousness required in justification. Lordship salvation is a back door attempt to teach salvation by works as it demands WORKS to be saved, whereas, works are only required before men to be RECOGNIZED as saved. However, what men recognize or do not recognize does not make a person saved or lost, but only so in the eyes of men.

    The real proof of salvation is not any amount or standard of external good works, but their attitude toward sin AND chastening consequences regardless of their weaknesses, and their total denial of self-help for justification and complete profession in Christ sufficiency. This attitude toward sin and chastening for sin are as much evidences for true salvation than the progressed holy walk of any other child of God.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Jan 12, 2015
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  13. evangelist6589

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    That's because you do not believe in LS and so no argument will convince you. You remind of the universalist whom denies hell and nothing will persuade him of its reality.
     
  14. gigabyte71

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    Does MacArthur say they do, isn't that really the entire purpose of this thread?
     
  15. gigabyte71

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    I like how you don't actually try to prove they do.

    Do you believe in being baptized for the dead?

    Here is a verse, taken out of context that says it should be done.

    "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" ~ 1 Cor. 15:29
     
  16. JamesL

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    Is it fair to say that one probably has to first be convinced of the doctrine before he can "see" it in scripture?
     
  17. evangelist6589

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    It's the bible. I read it and I believe it. No argument will convince you but as for me I am at peace with the Bible.
     
  18. evangelist6589

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    One has to read the Bible and believe it which sad to say does not represent many on this board.
     
  19. evangelist6589

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    Learn hermeneutics!!!!!!
     
  20. gigabyte71

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    I think you need to learn what hermeneutics is, I just finished the course in school.
     
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