Lordship Salvation vs Free Grace

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    In another thread, a poster said: "One who believes in Lordship Salvation is more prone to agree with Washer (post # 37) than one who is Free Grace or semi-Free Grace."

    Lets talk about this. Can you believe in Lordship Salvation and Free Grace at the same time - or are they totally opposite?

    and let the arguments - oops friendly discussion begin....
     
    #1 Salty, Jan 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2011
  2. InTheLight

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    I can't make any comments until the two terms, Lordship salvation and free grace, are defined. How would you define them?
     
  3. freeatlast

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    Define Lordship salvation please as well as free garce.
     
  4. R. Lawson

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    They're opposites.

    YBIC,
    Robb
     
  5. Tom Butler

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    Here's my understanding:

    The free-gracers hold that salvation is by grace through faith alone, and that's it. Nothing else is required. Some carry that view to the extreme, saying that not even a change in lifestyle is required. Believe? You're savedl

    The LS folks hold that salvation is incomplete if you accept Jesus as Savior but do not yield to him as Lord.

    The free-gracers view the Lordship aspect as adding something to the plan of salvation.

    The LSers say that Paul called on the lost to confess Christ as Lord and they would be saved.

    The free-gracers say Paul told the Philippian jailer to believe and nothing else.

    That's the way I understand each side.
     
    #5 Tom Butler, Jan 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2011
  6. freeatlast

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    Well then they are both wrong if that is the meaning. It is totally free but not without doing something. We do have to do something to be saved. That something is repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    The change of lifestyle is a result of salvation not what is required to be saved. No change in lifestyle then there has not been a change in eternal destiny.
     
  7. convicted1

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    Strangely enough, if I have the two "terminologies" correct, I believe in them both. God wants us "whole hog, or no hog"(LS), but the gift of Grace is free(FG...not Field Goal, either....:) ) Also, repentance and faith are required prior to salvation. Remember this, in Luke 15, the Prodigal Son had to come out of the "hog lot"(withdrawing from sin), and make his way back to Father's house(repentance). Or, at least that's how I see it!!
     
  8. Tater77

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    Salvation is the free gift of God resulting from the finished work at the Cross. The FG camp teaching is incomplete but what it does teach is correct. Post Salvation discipleship is missing. Also tends to ignore good works. Many people jump onto this bandwagon because its very easy and appealing.

    The LS'ers lean to much towards a performance based Faith with to much emphasis on the "rules". This view falls into the trap of legalism way too easy. Often to the point of eliminating Grace and putting people under Law. This side tends to burn people out or hurt them to the point where they no longer go to Church.
     
  9. David Lamb

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    I agree.

    Some while ago, Deacon wrote:
    Originally Posted by Deacon
    As a new born believer, I didn't even know what "Lord" meant.

    I believed in his ability to help me, knowing he was sufficient for my need.

    Was he Lord? Sure he was!

    Did I have to know it? Not really

    Does this mean he is not Lord? No

    Rob
    I replied at:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1269061#post1269061

    I am sure many Christians' testimony would be similar, Rob. But that is quite different from saying, "Jesus is my Saviour, but He is not my Lord," as some seem to do. If another Christian came to you, a new born believer, and showed you (from the Scriptures) that the things you already believed about Jesus Christ (that He had ability to help you, and that He is sufficient for all your needs) were in themselves indications that He is your Lord, I imagine you would have believed them. At your conversion, you were unable to put into words the fact that Jesus Christ is your Lord, but as you say, He definitely was, and is, praise His wonderful name!
    I had assumed that Lordship Salvation was a way of saying that it is impossible to have Jesus as your Saviour, without Him also being your Lord, but from What Tom Butler said in this thread, that is not correct.

    So, we really do need to define terms when coming to this subject.
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    RIGHT ! :thumbs:
     
  11. David Lamb

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    When you say that post-salvation discipleship is missing in the free grace camp, are you saying that those who believe in God's free and sovereign grace don't teach people once they have been converted? If so, I must say that such a lack is not something I have encountered.

    Nor have I come across any tendency to ignore good works (assuming we're still talking post-conversion here).
     
  12. freeatlast

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    It is one thing to not understand all the implications of who Jesus is and another to knowingly reject His authority(reject Him being Lord over us) because to reject His authority we reject Him because Lord and Savior is who He is. The bible says this in Acts;
    [SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Lord is not an empty title. It is a position of rule over someone or something. Unless we are submitted to that person in their capacity they are not Lord as far as we are concerned. We may call someone in another country king so and so, but unless we are under his rule and submitted to His authority all we are doing by calling him king is flattering him with worthless title. The same with Jesus and more. Jesus being Lord is both who He is and the position He lives out. Both must be accepted by the person coming for salvation
    Repentance is turning to God. We are born with a bent not to want to have anyone over us, even God. That is clear with our children and the struggle to get them to obey. The same heart is towards God. At repentance we are turning from that bent with a broken and contrite heart to accept God to take His rightful place in our lives. It does not mean that we overcome all sin, it does mean that we now have willfully accepted God as rule over us. Overcoming the flesh is part of sanctification.

    A person cannot be in rebellion and repentance at the same time and repentance is not a one time event and it is done. Repentance is done in spirit and thus is a state which the believer lives in the rest of their lives.

    The scripture says this;
    And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    Faith towards the Lord Jesus Christ is believing, not simply that story of the cross, but receiving Jesus as Lord. It is taking the heart/spirit of repentance towards God and placing it on Jesus because we believe. A person cannot be in rebellion against the lordship of Jesus and be in repentance towards God at the same time since Jesus is God, and where there is no repentance in its fullness there is no salvation.
    I believe it possible that a person does not understand all the ramifications of Jesus being Lord, God, Son, and all about the Trinity, and still be saved IF they have a heart that is surrendered even to all that they do not understand, but no one can have a heart of rejecting any person of the Godhead in their position or authority and be saved.
    I have listened to some testimonies where someone claims to have gotten saved at 12 by accepting Jesus as savior and now at 30 are accepting Him as Lord. The problem is that they did not get saved at 12. Again we cannot be in repentance and rebellion at the same time and to knowingly reject the lordship of Christ over us is a spirit of rebellion and if we are in a spirit of rebellion we are not saved.
    .
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    #12 freeatlast, Jan 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2011
  13. HankD

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    Can anyone define Lordship Salvation in terms of the commitment required.

    Is it a 60/60/24/7/365? commitment?

    Will one hour, one minute or perhaps one second of sin/lust disqualify a person from Lordship status?

    Frankly and IMO, it sounds like sinless perfection (Baptist version of Wesleyan "full sanctification" in disguise).

    HankD
     
  14. freeatlast

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    [SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]
    [SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]it is not 60/40. Jesus is 100% Lord. It is not about a time frame. Nor even about certain sins. It is about our spirit/heart towards God and Christ. For a true believer even the sin that they may do they do not want to do it, but they give into the flesh at some given moment. Then comes confession with the turning from the sin in spirit.

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  15. glfredrick

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    I agree with those who see this as a both/and issue instead of an either/or issue.

    We are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Once saved, we are children of the King and our Lord is Jesus Christ. Our salvation by grace is contrasted with a need do do what the Lord who saves says:

    Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

    That indicates that there are things that we do for our Lord, but those tasks are not salvific. We are already saved when asked to follow Christ as Lord. Then, Hebrews 12 (and many other places!) speak to the believer and give us guidance as to our role once saved...

    Hebr 12:1-8 (ESV) Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. 6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." 7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

    Not either/or, but both/and.
     
  16. Tom Butler

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    I have heard people give testimonies like this: I took Jesus as my Savior when I was 9 years old, but I didn't take him as my Lord until several years later.

    That sounds like the free-grace position. That believing and Lordship are separate things.

    My understanding of the LS is that believing in Christ as Savior and confessing him as Lord should not be separated.
     
  17. HankD

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    Yes, testimonies abound to that point.

    But testimonies do not carry the weight of Scripture, I'm sure we all agree.

    The First Epistle to the Corinthians is an inspired witness as to the depths of un-Christ like behavior of which believers are capable.

    Babes in Christ need to be nurtured and helped along the way to sanctification. Helped to their feet should they stumble.

    Meat before milk can strangle them (humanly speaking).

    Or as the world says, you must crawl before you walk, walk before you run.

    Yes, it's a tough call requiring patience of those who feed His sheep, and that is why this verse:

    NKJV James 3:1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.​

    And as has been said - it's not an either/or situation.​

    HankD​
     
    #17 HankD, Jan 31, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  18. David Lamb

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    Tom, you have emphasised the need for defining terms. I believe in God's free and sovereign grace (the "Doctrines of Grace"), but I certainly don't believe that you can "take Jesus as your Saviour" without having Him as your Lord. Yet you say that such a belief "sounds like the free-grace position." :confused:

    Does "free grace" then mean something different to the doctrines of grace? Confusing!
     
  19. InTheLight

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    When you phrase it that way it sounds like repentance is a good work. (Acts 20:21)
     
  20. webdog

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    I believe this is the most accurate understanding of the redundantly phrased "free grace" position on this thread.
     

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