Lordship salvation

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by massdak, Oct 28, 2002.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    has this topic been brought up yet?
    john macarther vs. the easy believism camp
    this argument seems to mean the Lordship camp adds works for salvation by adding submitting to the Lordship of Christ as an added addition for salvation. any thoughts on this subject?
    by the way hello, i am a new poster here
    God Bless
     
  2. tnelson

    tnelson
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    These are two books you should read if you have not read them.

    The Gosple According to Jesus and The Gosple According to the Apostles by John MacArthur.

    ps Welcome to the Baptist Board.

    by His Grace
    mike
     
  3. Scott J

    Scott J
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    I like JM. I listen to him often and own several of his books though not on this subject yet.

    From what I have heard him say, he believes that if Jesus does not become your Lord then He was never your Saviour. I would agree with this much and argue that it is in concert with scripture.

    However, I also believe a genuine Christian can have a delay before God begins to work in their lives and that a genuine Christian can backslide then be reconciled. JM may or may not agree.
     
  4. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Massdak writes:
    the Lordship camp adds works for salvation by adding submitting to the Lordship of Christ as an added addition for salvation.

    McArthur states:
    As I said recently, there’s one basic thing that I believe occurs when God saves someone, Ok? And that is this: there’s a change in intent. Did you get that? There’s a dramatic transformation of intent, attitude, desire, and will that results in a change in behavior. There is not necessarily an immediate, momentary, total transformation of behavior. There is a change in intent, desire, will, and attitude.

    That can be boiled down to one dominant thought: when a person is saved, they love God. They love God; they love Christ. That’s the new attitude. The new desire: to express that love, to serve the one they love. Once you affirm that salvation makes men love God--Romans 5, “The love of God is”--what?--“shed abroad in our hearts”--once you affirm that salvation makes men love God, then all the rest falls into place. If you love God, you hate what? Sin. If you love God, you submit to the one you love.

    So, that solves the whole problem and that’s what we’re trying to say. It isn’t works. It’s that when God saves someone, He gives them a new heart. He takes out the stony heart and gives them a heart of flesh and that heart of flesh loves God. Jesus says that over and again in John’s Gospel where He talks about the fact that “those who know Me, love Me, and love my Father, and We love them.” He tangles us all up in a love bond with God so that when you’re saved, instead of loving self, instead of loving sin, instead of loving the world, the flesh, the devil, you love God! You love Christ! And therefore, you love what is right and you hate what is wrong. You love obedience to Him, you hate disobedience. That’s the intent, desire, will, attitude that is transformed in a person. That’s the root that results in the fruit.

    The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr. It was transcribed from the tape, GC 70-8, titled "Questions and Answers--Part 36." A copy of the tape can be obtained by writing, Word of Grace, P.O. Box 4000, Panorama City, CA 91412 or by dialing toll free 1-800-55-GRACE. Copyright 2001 by John MacArthur Jr., All Rights Reserved.
     
  5. NewMan795

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    "Lordship salvation" is the idea that "if Jesus is not Lord of ALL, he is not Lord at all." The folks that hold to this teaching seem to forget the FACT that we have an "old nature" when we are saved. The "old man", though crucified with Christ, does not change at all, and he is still there. Galatians 5 says that IF we "walk in the Spirit, we shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Well, the opposite is true also "If we do NOT walk in the Spirit, we SHALL fulfill the lust of the flesh." If a believer does not avail himself of the truth in Romans 6, that believer is capable of doing ANYTHING a lost man can do. The "flesh" is still with the believer. Galatians 5 gives the list of the "works of the flesh", and Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS. ANY of us can perform ANYTHING on that list, and still be saved. We could choose to live after the flesh AFTER we have been born again, and although the scripture says we will die, we could live that way for any number of years. The "Lorship salvation" thing seems to me to have an element of "self-righteousness", or "works" included in it. We are saved by RECEIVING Jesus Christ as Saviour, trusting in what He did FOR US on the cross. He said "It is finished", and that salvation is given to the believing sinner as a GIFT. It is FREE. "No strings attached." To me, one of the greatest things about the Lord, and most amazing, is that AFTER He saves us, purchasing us with His own BLOOD, He does not take away our "free-will", or right to choose....He still lets us make up our mind as to whether we will serve Him, or not. Mr. MacArthur, though he is a good teacher on some things, is also wrong about the blood of Christ. You should look up his "opinion" about our Saviour's BLOOD. He has some pretty blasphemous things to say about it.
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Actually, a saved person does not have an old nature. Paul said that if any man was in Christ, he is a new creation. Well, your body doesn't change.

    Paul also said that the old man and its sinful passions were crucified. Was it able to survive crucifiction and still overpower believers? I think not.

    Further, the list of sins in Galatians 5 is followed by a tricky phrase - those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In other words, if that is your lifestyle, you are lost.

    Out like Barry Bond's change for a ring.
     
  7. Scott_Bushey

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    NewMan795 writes:

    You boldly state about MacArthur:
    You should look up his "opinion" about our Saviour's BLOOD. He has some pretty blasphemous things to say about it.

    Scott states:
    There was time when John had a "different" view on the *Blood of Christ"........since that time (which was 5 years or so ago) he has *changed* his view to a more orthodox position. He had humbly published a position change for all to view. He is not a dogmatic man...very kind, gentle, teachable.

    NewMan795,
    Please be careful to not bear false witness against the brethren. Calling this man of God with intentional "blasphemy" is to be challenged.
    ~Always a student, never a scholar!

    [ October 29, 2002, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]
     
  8. Jim1999

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    There is a sense in which we are saved, we ar ebeing saved and we will ultimately be saved. This is not foreign thinking to Calvinism. It involves something called Perseverance of the Saints and Sanctification.

    There is a definite "conversion" at the moment we receive Christ into our lives. Rightly, this has been stated as a change of direction. We may wander or stagger a little as we start that journey, but God will create within us a right heart and a right mind toward Himself.

    Along the way we stumble and fall,,,,we become like poor impetuous Peter,,ever anxious to move along and sometimes falling back.

    Have you ever written a letter to God? I have done this a number of times. Yes, pen and paper, sealed in an envelope and put in my "in" basket.
    I later read this letter and realize how silly I was to even think the way I did. This comes at a moment of human weakness. A time when I think that my labours are for naught, or no one is listening, or perhaps I missed the boat altogether.
    With each letter, I take another step forward to submitting to the lordship of Christ. An infant crawls before it walks, and walks before it runs. Along the way there are many bumps, retreats, but never defeats. This is our sanctification, this is our persevering unto full salvation.....at least from the human side of the equation.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. massdak

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    thank you all for your replys.
    my thoughts are that Lordship people seem to say you must believe and follow with obedience to Christ. the other side seems to say believe in Christ and He will change you, plus nothing and minus nothing. it is false to say it is all Christ but you must do also.
    can you not agree that one maynot be able or willing to reform himself, but he must be willing to let Christ take away his sin.
     
  10. Helen

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    Hi Massdak and welcome to the board.

    A lot of people seem to want to be saved from hell by Jesus but still run their own lives. The quick and easy answer to that is that Jesus is not a fire insurance agent; He is God.

    The best way to understand the idea behind what is called Lordship salvation is to read the book of James. If what you claim as your faith does not show up in your life, your faith is dead -- it means nothing. Jesus said, "If you love me, you will obey me."

    Here is another way to put it -- "nonLordship salvation" would be that you could pay lip service to Christ and never be concerned about a change of life or heart. Christ would not be in control of your life; you would. That one DEFINITELY implies some kind of works-based salvation, for you are ordering yourself around instead of following Christ.

    There is not an added 'work' in Lordship salvation. It is the acknowledgement of the helplessness of us and the omnipotence of Christ. Acknowledgement is not a work! It is, instead of saying "God be my COpilot", a matter of giving up the pilot's seat altogether to God. It is finally NOT trying to impress God with works, but instead trusting and obeying, because He IS God.
     
  11. Charlie T

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    Let's here Jesus speak of easy believism.

    "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:26-27

    He used the strongest possible words to say that discipleship is an all or nothing proposition.

    I suggest Bonhoeffer's [sp?] book The Cost of Discipleship.

    Charlie
     

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