Loss of salvation arguements compiled...

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by AAA, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. AAA

    AAA
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    I am trying to compile the best arguements for the doctrine that a true born again believer can LOSE thier salvation....

    I am not going to debate your points, but like I said I am trying to compile your arguements for my personal study into this very important matter..........

    Please, state your best arguements (with bible verses) for this false doctrine......

    Thanks for all your help.

    :godisgood:
     
    #1 AAA, Jul 10, 2007
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  2. BobRyan

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    You have come to the right place!!

    Since you do not intend to respond but are just looking for reference material -- enjoy!!


    Matt 10:22
    butit is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.



    1 Timothy 4:16
    Pay
    close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


    Heb 2:1-3
    1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

    Heb 3:6
    but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
    and the boast of our hope firm until the end.


    Heb 3:12-14
    12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
    13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
    by the deceitfulness of sin.
    14 For we have become partakers of Christ
    , if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


    Heb 10:35-39
    35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
    36 For
    you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
    37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
    38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND [b
    ]IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [/b]
    39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have
    faith to the preserving of the soul.

    1Cor 15:1-2
    1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
    in which also you stand,
    2 by which also you are saved,
    if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
    Rom 11:22
    20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21for if God did not spare the natural branches,
    He will not spare you, either.
    22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
    if you continue in His kindness; otherwise
    you also will be cut off.
    23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to
    graft them in again.


    Col 1:21-23
    22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
    Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
    23 [b
    ]IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY[/b]
    from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
    and of which I Paul was made a minister.



     
    #2 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2007
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  3. BobRyan

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    Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

    Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
    8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
    Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap
    if we do not grow weary.


    Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
    Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."


    Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
    who has endured to the end who will be saved."

    2Peter 1:10-11
    8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
    knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
    10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; [b
    ]for as long as
    you practice these things,
    you will never stumble;[/b]
    11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
    [/quote]


    Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.




    Peter points out that only the saints are those who are “Partakers of the Holy Spirit” having “tasted the heavenly gift” AND “the powers of the age to come”



    The “saved” experience is never called “worthless” with the result that one “ends up being burned”. Notice that Paul shows this to be the END of the person – not a mere “trial” by fire to be endured as we go on to even better things!. He says “Ends up being burned”!


     
  4. BobRyan

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    And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!



    Clearly God DOES see what the fully forgiven man "did" in real life.

    These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”. They show ‘conditional salvation’ explicitly!

    Here we see that the "Righteous man" is the one that may "turn" and "DO" things that are evil - and THEN the result is -- the death of OSAS>


    Ezek 18

    8if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,

    9if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD.

    15"He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,
    16or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,
    17he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.

    18"As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.
    19"Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
    20"The person who sins will die The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
    21"But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
    22"All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
    23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
    24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
    25"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right ' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
    26"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.






    Under conditional salvation there is a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.



    The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Simple Question for Calvinists and OSAS promoters – who is the “WE” and the “US” in the following text?

    What is the meaning of “He Also will deny US”?

    [quote]2 Tim 2[/b]
    11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
    12 [b]If we endure
    , we will also reign with Him; [b]If we deny[/B] Him, He also [b]will deny us;[/B]
    13 [b]If we are faithless[/b], He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
    14 Remind them of these things[/b], and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

    [/quote]

    In fact it is the condition of the “Shipwreck of faith” that Paul has already warned Timothy about. The very condition that OSAS denies.



    It is as James says – a soul in death – doomed.



    How can wander from the truth if they were never in the truth?

    What is the result of bringing them back? “Save their soul from death”.

    This also shows that the sins committed AFTER coming to Christ – DO count! “And will cover a multitude of sins”!. Hence the instruction in 1John 1:9 “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us… AND to cleans us “ and this is post conversion for John says 1John 2:1 “These things I write to you that you sin not BUT if anyone does sin” (after coming to Christ) we “ have an advocate with the Father”. The fact of sin, sinning, repentance, forgiveness AFTER salvation is stated clearly.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    While we are on the subject --

     
  7. David Lamb

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    Sorry, I cannot help. Words such as those of Jesus in John 10.28-29:

    28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
    29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."​


    and those glorious words of Romans 8.35-39, seem clear enough to me:


    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
    37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,
    39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​


    I'll say no more, as I know you don't want a discussion on this.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Hint - don't read the scriptures given in the other posts on this thread if you want to keep with that interpretation.

    (BTW - though AAA may not be looking for discussion at some point it would be good to have)
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Bump -

    Blessing to those who read the scriptures that are "inconvenient" in the face of man-made traditions to the contrary.
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

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    David,

    You quoted John 10:28-29, this speaks for sheep who hear and follow are in Christ's hand in John 10:27. Or, if we stopped listening and follow Christ, then we would be loosed out of his hand.

    Romans 8:35-39 talks about God's love, not salvation. Everything cannot separate from God's love toward us.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Just remember, those were the words of a man that also stated that he had lived in all good conscience unto that day, and testified concerning his clear conscience before God and man. If you desire to have the confidence he spoke about in the verses you mention, you need to be in possession of a like conscience, void of offense between yourself and God and your fellowman. :thumbs:

     
  12. BobRyan

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    This is a good point. "God so loved the world" means God loves even those who reject the Gospel and burn in the lake of fire.
     
  13. drfuss

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    drfuss: If OSAS was correct, it would also include that "even if we ourselves wanted to separate from Christ, we could not". That is one reason why I don't believe OSAS. I just wanted to point out that these scriptures do not establish OSAS, and therefore do not counter the scriptures Bob Ryan has posted..
     
    #13 drfuss, Jul 15, 2007
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  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: OSAS promotes and advocates the clear notion of not only a sinning religion but a religion that can encompass a sinning lifestyle, a consistent practicing the same old sins.
    Recently there was a singing songwriter that came to the local assembly. He told of getting saved at six years old, only to grow up and for fifteen long years of his adult married life he and his wife did numerous kids of drugs on almost a daily basis, frequented bars, nightclubs etc, and yet claimed to be a Christian the whole time. He stated that he repented every day for his sins.

    If that is not a lifestyle of practicing sin I do not know what could possibly be. I am grateful if in fact he has ceased from this former lifestyle, but with the comment, something to the effect that he could live that way again although he now doesn’t want to, makes me wonder as to the depth of his commitment. If he has ever really repented it is in spite of his mixed up notions as to the real meaning of repentance. I know that God can indeed work around a lot of mixed up notions. I certainly hope that He has in the case of this individual.
     
  15. drfuss

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    HP writes:
    Quote:
    Drfuss: OSAS was correct, it would also include that "even if we ourselves wanted to separate from Christ, we could not".

    Drfuss: HP left out the word "if" in the above quote.

    Getting back to the OP, John 10: 27-29 should be considered scripture that supports a Christian being able to lose (or forfeit) one's salvation. John 10:27 says "and they follow Me". If OSAS were correct, it would say "and they cannot (or will not) stop following Me".

    Romans 8:35-39 should also be considered in support of a Christian being able to lose (or forfeit) one's salvation. Note all the things listed that cannot separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. The point of the scripture was to include everything that cannot separate us from the love of God. If OSAS is correct, it would also say "even we cannot separate ourselves from the love of God...".

    In summary, you can add John 10:27-29 and Romans 8:35-39 to your requested list.

    Sorry my previous post was not clear on these points of adding these scriptures in response to the OP..
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Actually there are two OSAS paths and neither of them work in John 10.

    1. "And they will-not can-not stop following Me".
    2. "And whether they follow Me or not they are mine"

    Neither of these OSAS solutions work in scripture.
     
  17. BobRyan

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  18. David Lamb

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  19. BobRyan

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    I agree that given certain texts (Romans 8 being a good example) one could easily find room for OSAS. (At least some space where the salient points in OSAS vs conditional Salvation are concerned due to the affirming nature of the text and silence on the salient issue)

    The problem is that given the great list of texts on page one of this thread that go directly to the boundary condition where OSAS needs to make it's point in a kind of 'even in this case you remain in Christ, in fellowship, saved and accepted by God' argument -- what we find is explicit statements about "severed from Christ, fallen from grace... neither will He spare you... better if they never knew.." etc.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Oasis

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    David Lamb
    :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

    Might I add one David?

    "To him who is able to keep you from falling
    and to present you before his glorious presence
    without fault and with great joy"-Jude 24 NIV
     

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