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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by TheOliveBranch, Aug 20, 2003.
Do you believe Lot witnessed to the people of Sodom?
And the sodomites witnessed to Lot. Remember, 99% of our "witness" is what we DO, not what we SAY.
(BTW, makes clear the "sin" of sodom, doesn't it?)
I think scripture supports it! Why else would they attack him and assault him if he gave appearance of being one of the guys?
Yes. Because of the reasons Dr. Bob and Diane gave. I couldn't say it any better than they did.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but do Dr. Bob and Diane have conflicting points?
NO! We just used different sections of the scripture. Dr. Bob also emphasized how we, as a people, can also be influenced (vexed, upset) by those around us!
I point out that Lot tried to stop the men from the desired rape of the angels in his home and Dr. Bob pointed out that Lot was 'vexed' or upset by their filthiness!
The question was: Did Lot give witness to Sodom and both of us said YES. BTW: Dr. Bob always mentions that he has a 'dry sense of humor' and is many times misunderstood because of that.
I had recently heard a topic preached about Lot. He was stating that if Lot would have done a better job at telling the lost about God, the city would have had more people in it that would have been saved.
This bothers me because of the scripture that Dr. Bob quoted. One can only do so much to help people learn of the truth. It is their choice to accept that. I think that by those new testament verses, this shows that Lot cared about the spiritual state(or the lack thereof) of those people, and had probably done his job in that city. God only stepped in to destroy it because they had all been given the chance to believe, and severely rejected the truth.
We had over 5,000 people witnessing to those who endorsed sodomy on this board and they would not hear the truth. There was only ONE Lot.
I didn't really think that Lot witnessed to Sodom. I know when the men of the town wanted to "know" the two strangers (God's angels) he was harboring, he called the men of the town "brethren". Which seems to mean that he felt a connection to them, and they were admittedly wicked. Then he offered his two virgin daughters to them to "know". I got the impression that Lot wasn't a very godly man. And given the incest that he committed a little later on with his daughters, doesn't that confirm it?
I just read about Lot this morning before starting my day. Seriously...I got the impression that the only reason why God saved Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah was because of who he was related to...not really because he was a very godly person.
Maybe I need to study it more...but that's the impression that I have. Am I wrong?
Hi Laurenda, Look at Genesis 19:9 And they said, "Stand back!" Then they said, "This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them." So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door....
The wording makes me think they are saying that Lot kept telling them they were doing wrong. He keeps acting as judge. Look at that later and see what you think. I don't know why he called them brethren. I'll look at the study notes on that. Hmmmm???? Seems like an odd term to use doesn't it?
In 2 Pet 2:6-8 Lot is decribed as "righteous" and "just". He was bothered by the sin in the city because his soul was "vexed".
Maybe Lot told them of God. Maybe his wife even told him she believed him. Maybe Lot saw his daughters as very sinful, taking after his wife, who is not at all saved, as he can see by her life practices (after all, she did look back). Maybe he was so desperate in trying to save these two men, which by this time I think he knows who they are, calling the men of Sodom "brethren" to try to make them realize they are men and these guests are from God. The daughters were offered to the men, but did Lot know something we don't? His daughters made him drink so much that "he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose." These daughters knew what they were doing. We can only speculate what the reasons were for the way Lot handled the situation in Sodom, but we can't deny what the Bible says.
Sure he could have called the wicked sodomites "brethren" not meaning it literally, just like they could have called him "judge" because they were angry that he wouldn't do what they wanted them to do. Hey, they were threatening him with physical harm at the time. ...but I tend to think that he knew them, was part of their society...he wasn't seperate like a witness would have been. "Lot sat in the gate of Sodom" Gen. 12:1
And as for his offering his virgin daughters to the wicked men of Soddom so that they would "know" them instead of God's messengers...I think he did that to save himself not only from the men of Soddom, but probably from the wrath of God as well, more than because he thought his children were wicked and they deserved that kind of abuse. What kind of father would do something like that? Only a wicked one.
As far as the incest that happens later on that results in his children carrying his children....alcohol isn't an excuse for incest now...so I find it hard to accept it as an excuse then. And isn't drinking to excess also a sign of ungodliness?
I doubt very seriously that he was a witness for God. I think he was spared because of who his Uncle was.." And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt." Gen 19:29 .... and possibly because he took the angels into his house to protect them. I mean isn't that similar to the reason why the Harlot Rahab was spared from the Lord's wrath in the book of Joshua?
I haven't found where the Bible says that he was a witness. So he probably wasn't.
The study guides off Crosswalk say that this word, in this instance and a few others only means 'my fellow countryman' and not a family member or close associate.
One thought.... Lot offered his daughter's to the men knowing the men were sodomites. Would a homosexual today accept a young girl if in fact he wanted a man? Maybe Lot expected them to refuse?
Even so, it doesn't diminish God's word that he was sitting in the gates, a place where only the men of high standing in the town were allowed to sit.
On your second point...I think that that is a stretch. It doesn't underplay the fact that they were an angry violent mob. Would a father ever give his virgin daughters to an angry mob to be abused even under the best of circumstances. (there is no such thing)
No, I haven't seen anything on this thread that has swayed me into thinking that Lot was a witness for God to Soddom.
There is just too much evidence in God's word to the contrary.
About sitting in the gate: Only Matthew Henry puts it in a positive light. He says that Lot sat there alone while the rest of the city was probably drinking and engaging in sin. He points out that it says he was sitting there in the evening and doesn't say he was there during the business day.
The rest just point to the gate being a gathering place for business and socializing.
Lot was a lot like a lot of us. A lot of ambition and a lot of arrogance. He probably had a house on a corner lot and thought it was his lot in life to hang out with the lot that lived in Sodom. I don't think he witnessed to them because I don't think he had a lot to offer and as a result, the trouble he ended up with was...(you guessed it) a lot.
Wow, Artimaeus, That says a LOT!
Can a man be righteous and not be a witness? He had to be living right. The Lot being described seems to be very sinful or backslidden.