Loved...Hated

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Feb 1, 2003.

  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    Romans 9:13, As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    Arminians claim that God did not actually hate Esau as Romans 9:13 teaches. The word "hate," they claim, means that Esau was simply not chosen or that Esau was loved less than Jacob.

    Malachi 1:3-4, "And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever."

    This text certainly does not leave the option of teaching that Esau was simply not chosen or that Esau was just loved less than Jacob.

    The $1,000,000.00 question: "Is there unrighteousness with God?"
     
  2. npetreley

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    I "love less" to disappoint those who are translating it as "love less", but the word miseo:

    New Testament Greek for ' have I hated '

    3404 miseo {mis-eh'-o}
    from a primary misos (hatred); TDNT - 4:683,597; v
    AV - hate 41, hateful 1; 42
    1) to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
    2) to be hated, detested
    (strong's number 3404)

    As for the $ question, of course not.
     
  3. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    It has come to my attention also that some Arminians claim that Romans 9 is not referring to eternal salvation. In verses 6-8, Paul wrote, "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Paul makes several illustrations to prove that the word of God has not been made void because of the rejection of Jesus by Israel. He demonstrates in verse 7 that God only chose to bless the seed of Isaac to inherit the land of Canaan and the blessings thereof. Then, in verse 8, Paul affirms that just because one is an Israelite according to the flesh, it in no way assumes their salvation. In verses 10-13 Paul wrote, "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Paul begins with "not only this." In other words, there is another example, Jacob and Esau. Ishmael was just as much the seed of Abraham as Isaac was, but "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." Esau was just as much as the seed of Isaac as Jacob was. However, God chose Jacob and his descendants to partake of peculiar blessings that Esau and his descendants were not granted to partake of. In verse 8, Paul wrote that "the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Paul says that we (Christians), as Isaac was, are the children of promise (Galatians 4:28). In other words, we are not saved through national lineage, but because of our being chosen by God. In verses 25-26, Paul illustrates the election of God pertaining to the Gentiles as well.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    All means All, World means World, but Hate doesn't mean Hate. I can't figure them out.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Primitive Baptist,

    You brethren don't seem to understand the text. Romans 9:13 and Malachi 1:3-4 has nothing to do with God picking and choosing some for Heaven and Hell. Sinners do very well at sending themselves to this unthinkable place called, destruction. Show us where any verse in the Bible suggests or summarizes the alleged fact that God decrees to send billions of souls to Hell. We will accept even your thousand dollar opinion.

    We have no problem even if God hated, as it were, with all His heart Esau. This is a Biblical fact. He chose Jacob to be the lineage by which the Promised Son--Jesus Christ would be born. Esau was sent to a desolate land by Almighty God, He did not or even need to send him to Hell, because Jacob in fact was the greater sinner, though both covenant sons of the former covenant, [Hebrews 11:20] and listed as heroes of the faith. Was not Jacob called a deceiver?
     
  6. cfolsom

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    Dear Brethren,

    Question: For anyone to claim Christ as their Savior, They also must claim Adam as their "federal head", right?

    I will assume the answer to be yes, seeing as my understanding is most people will agree with that.

    Now, since Adam sinned, it is by his sin all mankind is doomed to eternal seperation from God, right? Correct, since we are all sinners by nature and sinners by practice says the bible.

    Did God cause Adam to sin? Everyone, I know will answer that question NO! God did not cause Adam to sin.

    Since God did not cause Adam to sin, who caused the entire human race to be doomed to hell? Was it God or Adam? Why Adam, of course.

    When the angel of death came upon Egypt, who was saved by the "spotless lamb blood"? Why Israel, of course and not one else. God chose Israel to be HIS people and HE, GOD, delievered them from bondage. God said He would put a difference between HIS and the rest. Any Christian, with enough sense to lick a postage stamp understands that. The Old Testamnet was types and shadows of things to come (the New Testament). Satan has covered the eyes of many of God's people by planting a seed to divert their eyes from the truth of scripture. If God chose a people in the Old Testament, why is it so hard to believe HE (God) has chosen a people in the spritual realm, which is what the Old Testament was really all about?

    Type and shadows of things to come...Type and shadows of things to come!!!

    Changed like Saul,

    Elder Chris Folsom

    Primitive Baptist Minister
     
  7. Pastor Larry

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    I think it is you who doesn't understand the text. The text is arguing that God can do what he wants including pick someone for something while rejecting someone else for no reason outside of himself and he is perfectly just to do so.

    The problem with your suggestion that Jacob and Esau represent nations of people is that God does not talk of nations of people but rather of individuals. The whole chapter is pointing out that God can do what he wants to do because he is God.
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    Elder Chris Falsom,

    We too believe that God chosen a people called Isarelites under the former covenant. Although He chose a people for Himself, there were isolated cases where God allowed other people into the covenant, Ruth and Rahab, for example. I am sure you agree with this.

    We also agree that God has His chosen ones called the elect under this era of time since the crucifixion of our Lord. The difference between us is we believe that God through His sovereignty gives humankind the responsibility of receiving or not-- His free gift of everlasting life. [Romans 10:9-14]

    The alternate view suggests that God makes the choice as to who goes up and who goes down. Moreover, if He does this decretively {according to His decree} then human beings are off the hook, as far as responsibility and accountability before our holy God. According to Calvinistic theology God controls all things including our actions. This being true, then it is not I but God who causes or freely allows me to sin. And if He causes me to sin then we have no other path to walk except to say, God indeed is the Author of sin. This kind of belief causes even the agnostic to balk.

    This is what makes Divine election true, but only when we say that God has included us in His overall plan of sovereignty. God has assured us that He is not only God of sovereignty, but also One who demonstrates His love for the lost, [John 3:16]and His perfect justice and mercy toward every person.

    J.C. Carlile admits that "illogical as it may seem, Spurgeon's Calvinism was of such a character that while he proclaimed the majesty of God he did not hesitate to ascribe freedom of the will to man and to insist that any man might find in Jesus Christ deliverance from the power of sin.' A. C. Underwood, "A History of the English Baptists" (The Baptist Union of Great Britain and Ireland, 1947), p.203-206.
     
  9. IndpndntBptst

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    Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.' "
    Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

    The issue in Romans 9 is the judicial hardening of Israel and the incorporation of the Gentiles.
     
  10. IndpndntBptst

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    Double post... [​IMG]
     
  11. IndpndntBptst

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    Ishmael and Isaac are another example of this election. God chose Isaac. But God did not tell Ishmael, "You and your descendants are damned to hell." Actually, He blessed Him and made him a great nation.

    "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year."

    It is the same exact thing with Jacob and Esau.

    Romans 10:20, "But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me."

    This verily proves Romans 9:16, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    The Gentiles did not seek God, but they found Him. The Gentiles did not ask for God, but He manifested Himself unto them. Needless to say, God bestows mercy on whom He will. He also hardens whom He will. He endured much longsuffering with Israel. He gave them up to judicial blindness. John 9:39, "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind." Those who knew the truth but held it in unrighteousness, like the Jews, were blinded. Same thing for Pharaoh.
     
  12. Eric B

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    But others could have become apart of Israel, (Ex.12:48,9) and they too would have been spared. So still no individual is deliberately shut out.
     
  13. sturgman

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    Arminians speak of this in terms of national election, but don't see that bations are made up of individuals.

    Still these verses are "ILLUSTRATIONS" For Paul's next point dealing with salvific election.

    read on to verse 22 of Romans 9. "What if God, bore with great patience, objects of wrath prepared for destruction, and he did so, to show the objects of his effections his great mercy."

    Is this still speaking of national election? It clearly is not.

    And as for Indpntbptst's point, read the whole of Romans. As you read Romans 5-8 the next obvious question the reader would have for Paul is, "Paul, are you actually saying that a physical Jew can go to Hell?" This was ungeard of to many of his jewish readers. That is why Paul starts with Romans 9-11. You speak of Contex, you might look at it here too.
     
  14. sturgman

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    Ray, your logic is faulty as well, it goes something like this, if A=B and B=C then God is the Author of Sin! You make some very large jumps but do not offer any proof, only you opinion. God is not the author of sin, yet he can still ordain mans destiny. No one said that there is no responce, and no one said that man has NO freedom, he just does not have complete freedom. God still holds man culpible, and he is right to do so. See Romans 9 again, "Who are you 'OH MAN' to talk back to God..."

    You speak much of Calvinism like you know much of it. Please don't, because you don't.
     
  15. cfolsom

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    Brethren,

    If God had never sent Jesus to be the sacrifice, what would happen after Adam sinned?


    Changed like Sual,

    Elder Chris Folsom
     
  16. IndpndntBptst

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    Were all of Jacob's descendants saved? Obviously not. Read Malachi 1.
     
  17. sturgman

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    You can get htat from Romans 9, "So not all those of Israel are really children of Israel."

    What is your point?
     
  18. npetreley

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    No wonder the Arminian Bible dictionary only has one definition for every word I look up:"This word means whatever it must mean in order for the context to infer free will." :D
     

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