Lower than the angels? Does the KJV weaken Christ?

Amen!

 

There is one major problem with this view askjo/av1611jim: The KJV omits the phrase "litle while" which is present in the text of the original language (both Traditional and Critical) and should have been translated that way.

Besides that your assumption is wrong:

Ephesians 1
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


HankD

 

AV1611Jim wrote:

"Jesus, the MAN is STILL a little lower than the angels. He will ALWAYS be 100% MAN. And man IS lower than the angels. (in the order of creation) This must be so. Otherwise one must also apply "a little while" lower than the angels to ALL men"

No. This is NOT what the Bible teaches. The "subordination" of Jesus Christ, the God-Man, to God the Father was ONLY for the Incarnation, that is, during Jesus' life on earth. Hear what Jesus Himself says:

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5)

What is Jesus saying here? He is speaking to the Father, and asking to "be Glorified together with" the Father, with the Glory that He had with the Father from all eternity. Jesus says in Luke 24:26, about His entering "into His Glory". These references can only refer to His Post Resurrection. In the passage in John, Jesus is speaking of "equal Glory" to the Father, as the Greek of the text brings out. It is also noteworthy, that, during His time on earth, though "subject" to the Father in one sense, yet Jesus says: "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (John 5:23)The Greek, "kathos" (even as), denotes "equality", "exactly as". Jesus here claims for Himself "equal honour" to the Father, even though He was "subject" to Him.

Paul speaks of Jesus becoming "obedient unto death" (Philippians 2:8). Where I would render the Greek, "mechris" (unto), as "as far as" death, which denotes its end. The meaning, "to the point of daeth", would not fit the context here.

 

Hebrews 2:6-9 (KJV)

But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man , that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Are you saying that the KJV is wrong?

 

Yes.

HankD

 

Yes.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I second that

 

Amen! I agree.

 

Yes.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I second that
</font>[/QUOTE]I see, do you prefer NKJV than the KJV? Do you prefer mv than the KJV?

 

Yes.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]I second that
</font>[/QUOTE]I see, do you prefer NKJV than the KJV? Do you prefer mv than the KJV? </font>[/QUOTE]I use the NKJV and KJV, but in conjunction with the Greek New Testament, and translate for myself when I am not happy with the English. I also consult many MV's

 

Dr Frederick Scrivener, and the TR. I also refer for textual purposes, to Souter's, Alford, Wordsworth, Tichendorf, Lachmann, Nestle-Aland, UBS; and the Latin text.

 

Ok, which is most accurate?

 

Ok, which is most accurate? </font>[/QUOTE]Dr Frederick Scrivener, or course.

 

Agreed.

HankD

 

Okay, Icthus, HankD, etc., I have a legitimate question for those more familiar with the Greek than I am (I know little or nothing about Greek). This is not a "loaded" question intended to trip anyone up...

In Heb 2:9 the wording of the KJV would imply that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels so that He could suffer death, and that He was later crowned. However, the wording of the NASB would imply that Jesus was crowned because of His suffering of death. Which is more accurate to the Greek?

 

OK, one could probably make a case for either interpretation. To be honest, I can't discern which interpretation is more accurate from the Greek itself. It seems to me to need both.

However, even though I prefer the "little while" of the NASB, I would prefer the KJV/NKJV focus on the reason for the lowering for that "little while", that He was made flesh (mortal humanity subject to death) in order that He should "taste death for every man".

The NASB seems to focus on the glory which followed after the suffering of death as the cause of said glory.

But, as the KJV translators said: a variety of translations help to give us the "sense" of the Scriptures.

So, the Incarnation (lowering for a little while) was necessary so that He could suffer death, for which He was subsequently crowned with glory and honor.

HankD

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Hank!

 

Look at the link: A Little Lower Than God?

 

The word according to Strongs:

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhîym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.


Here is the usage:
King James Word Usage - Total: 2606
God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2,
great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1,
God-ward + (04136) 1, godly 1

Note that the ONLY place out of 2606 usages
that the KJV says "angels" is used is in
this place. BTW, define "Modern Version"
so that the Geneva Bible fits your definition
but the KJV does not

Psa 8:5 (Geneva Bible 1585):
For thou hast made him a little lower then God,
and crowned him with glory and worship.