LS & the RCC

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Aug 8, 2008.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    At my blog this morning one contributor posted the following notes on LS and John MacArthur written by a Roman Catholic theologian and apologist, Robert Sungenis. This has bearing on the discussion of LS at BB.

    My contributor noted,
    There are many who see Lordship Salvation as the first cousin of Roman Catholicism. At another blog I frequent one man had this to say (in the opening of a longer comment) about LS in which he draws the connection.
     
  2. ReformedBaptist

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    Lou,

    You keep posting these things, but I keep finding differences in your attack on JM and JM's own words....at least those on his website. And your trying to build a connection between ROme and JM is..well...funny. hahaha. I hope the Roman Catholics adopt the teaching of JM in regards to justification. hahaha!

    And,

     
  3. Thinkingstuff

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    I've not read JM. So I can't really comment on his discussion in his book. However, from my readings of Catholic theology it seems that the catholics look at salvations as a package deal (my words not theirs).
    Their salvation as I see it based on the Catachism etc...
    1. God provides for redemption of man kind by the sacrafice of his son.
    2. God elects (though the total RCC thought about election I honestly don't know but they do beleive God has chosen us either universally and or individually. More study is required of me to understand what they are actually saying)
    3. God provides grace to those he has chosen (his work not ours) giving Faith to the believer in order that they might believe.
    4. The only reasonable responce to faith given (not taken or believe outside of the grace already given to believer) is to accept the faith and believe.
    5. By the very fact of belief in a faith that has been given the christian is then responding to faith by works which works together with faith for salvation. One without the other it is then void. Works also works in the maintaining of the Christian faith and is a measure against apostasy.

    That is how I understand Catholic Soteriology.
     
  4. ReformedBaptist

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    Keep studying...lol Roman Catholic soteriology is a system of so-called grace through the RCC itself. There is not an area of salvation where the RCC, IMO, that has not usurped God's role.
     
  5. Thinkingstuff

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    I pulled my points straight out of the CCC. The RCC believes that it has authority on the teaching of scripture and salvation. That grace is enacted by God through the teaching of his word and by default the sole authority on earth to teach acurately is the RCC (by their understanding). So grace comes through the teaching of the Church but it is God himself that provides it and gives the christian the ability to beleive. Again Straight out of the CCC.
     
  6. ReformedBaptist

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    Thanks for proving my point.
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    I'm just pointing out what they teach. But I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that the RCC believes that there is no salvation apart from it? Or that the RCC is saying that Salvation can only come from them? Either point I think they would say you are mistaken. They believe there is a grace for people not apart of their Church and they can be saved. They also say that they are not the despencers (so to speak) of salvation but the transmitter of its teaching. But the will state salvation comes from God alone.
     
  8. ReformedBaptist

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    I'm not saying it..they do. And I am not mistaken on this. The grace is GOd's, they say, but mediated through the church and its sacraments. Surely you have read this. And yes, they officially believe there is no salvation outside the RCC.
     
  9. webdog

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    Key: DISCIPLE. This is sanctification, not justification.
    Key: AFTER ME. He didn't say "To Me". Discipleship. Sanctification, not justification.
    Key: This is speaking of BELIEVERS, those who already are set to enter the Kingdom. Sanctification, not justification.
    Key: following after Me, not coming to Me. Funny, because Luke adds "daily" to that equation, so if this is in regards to justification and not sanctifiation, NO person who ever lived did so "daily", and there is no salvation.
    Key: Verse 29 that he has left out. The foundation is there (faith). Sanctification, not justification. An unregenerated person CAN'T know the cost of loving Christ more than their own father or mother. Only with the Spirit who indwells us can this be understood.

    Thank you for brining more of LS's errors to light :)
    Key: AFTER putting his hand to the plow. Sanctification, not justification.

    I'm glad he didn't. :) In J Mac's own words he is stating Jesus REQUIRES a "wholehearted commitment" for salvation. An IMPOSSIBILITY for an unregenerated person to do.
    Hard demands?!?!?! Try IMPOSSIBLE DEMANDS!!! An unregenerated person can't even understand, lest meet such demands!!
     
    #9 webdog, Aug 8, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2008
  10. convicted1

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    Re: Ls & Rcc

    Me thinks LM has an axe to grind in regads to LS??

    Willis
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

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    Yep...for some reason he thinks this is very important to post multiple threads about.
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

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    I agree with JM on this 100%. Unless a man forsake all things to follow Jesus, he cannot be his disciple. Where are the Christians who are not disiples of Jesus.

    Your wack and hack job of the Scripture was hard to stomach.
     
  13. annsni

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    Ya think?? :laugh:
     
  14. webdog

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    We should all have an axe to grind concerning false doctrine.
     
  15. webdog

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    That was a quick reply...hence the sustantative post :rolleyes: You may as well not replied...

    Somebody "hacked" Scripture, all right. I'm glad there are those willing to stand up to modern day theological "heroes" (and I'm not referring to myself) who spew such garbage.

    You believe an unregenerated person can meet such demands? I thought you believed in the "T"?
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

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    This is what they say.
    And yes their view of the sacraments is that grace comes throught them. Remember the 5 points I listed above. That is how they see it.

    BTW on a side note how do you determine that scripture is the inspired word of God and if so how do you determine which books are inspired?
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    A discussion of the canon should be done on its own thread.

    "Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins..."

    Unam Sanctam AD 1302
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html
     
  18. ReformedBaptist

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    I believe and testify that unless a person repent and believe the Gospel, they cannot be saved. And I testiy that unless a person forsake all to follow Jesus they cannot be His disciple, in agreement with Holy Scripture.
     
  19. webdog

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    ...so that means you do or don't believe an unregenerated person can meet such demands :confused:
     
  20. ReformedBaptist

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    Have you read my statement of faith? It's out there, publically, for all to read. As a reminder, it is the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. You ask me if an unrengerate as the ability to forsake all. THe unregenerate do not have the ability in themselve even to believe on Christ, let alone repent and forsake all to follow Him.

    Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
    ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )
    LCBF, Chapter 9: Free Will, Article 3.
     

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