Luke 17 and the Rapture

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ChristianIssues, Jun 13, 2011.

  1. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues
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    Why is it that Luke 17:24-36 is never mentioned when the Rapture is discussed? I find that these verses clearly show when the Rapture will occur so I've made the following article to show how I see things. Can anyone show how this passage can be viewed differently?

    The following chart and text examine the verses in Luke 17:24-36 which are entirely about the day Jesus returns like lightning. I start with Matt. 24 to show the timing of the verses in Luke 17:24-36.
    Point 3 on the chart is Matt. 24:21, the Great Tribulation, and then after the tribulation …
    Point 5 (Matt. 24:27, 30) says that Jesus will appear like lightning - Luke 17:24 is the parallel verse.
    Now let's follow the verses in Luke 17 which describe Jesus' return AFTER the Great Tribulation.
    Points 6 and 7 (Luke 17:26-29) describe the sudden destruction of sinners in the days of Noah and Lot then …
    Point 8 (Luke 17:30) says that it (the destruction) will be just the same when Jesus returns. Also …
    Point 9 (Luke 17:31-33) says that “ON THAT DAY” no one should look to earthly things but to remember Lot's
    wife because …
    Points 10 and 11 (Luke 17:34-35) say that “one will be taken and the other left” and this is the Rapture.
    So, AFTER the Great Tribulation, Jesus will return like lightning to rapture believers and to destroy sinners.

    [​IMG]

    This chart shows the flow of events as:
    1) The Antichrist ………………………………… at Point 1.
    2) The Great Tribulation ………………………… at Point 3.
    3) Jesus appears like lightening …………………. at Point 5.
    4) The Rapture and the Day Of The Lord ……….. at Points 8 to 11.

    Rescuing the righteous and then destroying the sinners was the pattern in the days of Noah and Lot and Jesus said, in Luke 17:30, that it would be the same when He returns.
     
    #1 ChristianIssues, Jun 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2011
  2. revmwc

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    Except the one taken is the unbeliever taken and condemned as the believer is left on earth to go into the Millinial reign. The church has been raptured prior to the teribulation as Promi9sed by Christ.

    Also notice 1 Thessalonians 4:
    15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    When the Chruch is snatched away then the believers who are alive and remain will be caught up together in the air.

    Revelation 3: 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    Which crown do we need no man to take from us, 2 Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    The crown of righteousness that is given to all who love His appearing. We keep the word of His patience as we wait patiently for His return and He will keep us from the hour or time of Tribulation.

    Notice here in 1 Corinthians 3:
    10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    This doesn't occur at the Great wite throne at the end of the Millinial and it sure not occuring at the end of the Tribulation so Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    deals with the end of the Tribualtion with the unbeliever taken and executed while the believers of the Tribulation period will go into the Millinal reign.
     
  3. Tom Butler

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    Very nice chart.

    I have heard one variation on 17:30.

    It is, that those who are taken are taken in judgment; the others are left on the earth to dwell with the Lord Jesus.

    The idea is that the post-tribulation second coming brings Jesus all the way to earth, where he will defeat the enemies of God, bind Satan and begin his millennial reign with us.

    I wouldn't bet the farm on that view,but it is one that I've heard. And it does make some sense.

    Oops, I just now see that revmwc has heard the same view, but holds a pre-trib position that separates the rapture and second coming.
     
    #3 Tom Butler, Jun 13, 2011
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  4. Tom Butler

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    When I was first taught about the end times, it was the pre-trib rapture view. One thing that was driven home again and again was that when God takes out the believers, the Holy Spirit also goes.

    This meant that no one would be saved during the Tribulation,

    Later, somehow the teaching changed. The new version was that no Gentiles could be saved during the Tribulation, since the focus was now on Israel.

    Then comes along revmwc's view that there will be people saved during the Tribulation who will move right into the millennial reign.

    One view is that the Jews will be converted when he comes. Are these the believers who will move right into the Tribulation?
     
  5. beameup

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    Enoch is illustrative of the Rapture Saints (bride of Christ).
    Noah is illustrative of the Tribulation Saints (Messianic Jews)
     
  6. Amy.G

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    The Tribulation is for the conversion of the Jews to Christ. The Church will be gone, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He will move just as He did in the OT. Those that survive the Trib will go into the MK. The Church saints will rule and reign there along with the physical Christ as King of His kingdom that He promised the Jews, but as yet have not received.

    The seven year period of the Tribulation is the wedding of Jesus to His bride (the church). The OT Jewish wedding is a shadow of this. The groom took his bride away for 1 week while the guests had a party.
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    I once held the view you explained. But are you saying that there will be unsaved people who go into the MK? Or are you saying that some Gentiles (and Jews) will be saved during the Trib?
     
  8. Amy.G

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    Many Jews will be saved. That is God's purpose for the Trib. I believe some Gentiles as well will be saved, but this time is not for them. The "times" of the Gentiles will end with the rapture of the church.
     
  9. Allan

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    Tom.. the view didn't 'somehow' change as if over night.. it just wasn't what you were taught. In fact, in the last 40 years (even as child hearing sermons on it), I can't remember ever meeting any person who held to a pre or post trib view who held no one would or could get saved during the tribulation period. I know that the majority of Mid-Tribbers hold this view however. That doesn't mean it wasn't, it just wasn't apart of the circle of people I or my family was around (SBC - up and down the East Coast).

    While dispensationalism has been progressively changing or modifying some of it's positions (much like Covanental views are) this is not some 'new' view but it is a view that has been taught for many years. It is noted those who go into the Millennial reign through the tribulation will be saved (no one not saved will 'enter'.. but their CHILDREN will not be 'born' saved anymore than you or I was. They must also believe as you and I have done. Yet not all will.. this is where you have Satan being loosed at the end of the Millennial reign 'deceiving' the nations and gather them together to do battle (the number of which is as the sands of the sea -uncountable).

    Another point is that the 'focus' is not 'on' Israel but "God" fulfilling His promise both His promise AND judgment upon them. Israel is secondary to the point.. God keeping His promises and executing His judgments. The Church does and is there in the Millennium, just as equal in primacy but distinct in function, while both are of the same unit - saved. The object again, is not Israel itself but that God IS and HAS fulfilled His promises which He before promised and is now both spiritually and physically established - all in full.

    Again, this isn't some new view, just one your weren't taught. John MacArther teaches this same stuff as have many throughout the years :)

    I love how one of my profs put it regarding the pre-trib rapture or catching/snatching away.
    "You have heard some say - just find one solid scripture that states there is a pre-trib rapture and that will settle the issue. I hardly doubt it as there are some of our resolute Christian beliefs which have no such singular passages. If you can find for me one single passage that states the Trinity then you have done what no one else has even been able to do. There are some better than others which 'show' or 'illustrate' this view but none that are stated in any given passage. It is the combined testimony of scripture that gives us the doctrine of the Trinity and so it is with the pretrib views."

    There is a distinction of rapture or catching away FROM something.. and the second coming in which Jesus is actually back TO and upon the earth.
    At the rapture, with Pre, Mid, or Post.. it is meeting Christ in the air.. THEN He comes back to earth, whether immediately. 3 and half years, or 7 years later.
    All make the distinction of the joyous union and change of our bodies at the meeting with Christ, and the coming to the world for judgment and setting up His earthly Kingdom as promised in the OT and maintained in the NT and continued on in the apostles teachings to their students, and theirs their students for nearly 400 years.

    Lastly.. if I remember correctly though I believe revmwc view in totality is a hyper-dispensational view.. I could be mistaken but I remember it was either him or another (in discussion of another thread) it was noted. I could be wrong and it was someone else
     
    #9 Allan, Jun 14, 2011
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  10. Tom Butler

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    Okay Allan, thanks for refreshing my memory. I mentioned that interest in the end times really spiked in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Hal Lindsey wrote The Late, Great Planet Earth, and similar books flooded into the market. It was due mainly, I think, to the events then going on in Israel. The Six-Day War, etc.

    Prophecy conferences proliferated. And folks began to develop some formulas that would produce the date of the Rapture.

    By contrast, over the past few years, interest has waned. I haven't heard a teaching or sermon on the subject for quite some time, now. Maybe it's just the circle of Baptists that I run in. It may be that folks like Harold Camping come along, sets a date, gets everybody interested, turns out to be wrong, and folks turn their attention elsewhere.

    I haven't read a book on the end times in 20 years. That's the reason I didn't know if the dispy view was still what it was the last time I looked.
     
  11. revmwc

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    David Jerimiah radio program has been on the last times the last times I heard it. He teaches that anyone who rejects the Gospel in the church age can't be saved in the Tribulation. But the 144,000 Jews as I see it would have heard the Gospel message in this age to be saved in that one. I believe many will turn to Christ who rejected while the church is here but turn after the rapture after having heard it would happen. Revelation is clear those who take the mark of the beast will be forever lost but not all take it. If those who had heard the Gospel in this age can't be saved in the tribulation then the only ones who could would have to be real young and had not understood the gospel.
     
  12. HankD

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    This passage has been discussed before.

    It is modeled around the account of Lot and his deliverance from Sodom.

    First God delivers the righteous from the geographic area (rapture-harpazo-snatching away) then judgement falls upon those remaining in the city (The Tribulation).

    It's a simple hermeneutic, right or wrong is another thing.

    HankD
     
  13. revmwc

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    So also God made a way of saving the 8 from judgement in Noah's day, they were safe kept from the judgement. Remember there was only 1 window in the Ark and where was it?
     
  14. beameup

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    I would agree with David Jeremiah. However, those Messianic Jews during the tribulation will preach the gospel to those remote tribes of the earth who have never heard the gospel - and it will be in their own dialect no matter how small the tribe. I believe that the Holy Spirit will "abide with" a believer as long as his faith remains but you will be able to lose the Holy Spirit (as was the case in the O.T.) if you deny Christ. So, in the case of Tribulation Saints, most of them will become Martyrs. The Gospel will be preached to EVERY kindred, tongue, tribe and nation.
     
  15. lastday

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    One Taken, One Left

    It is not necessary that either the one taken nor the one left refers
    to the Believers. All Believers will be "caught up to meet the Lord".
    This must be true since "all the saints come with Christ". I Thes.3:13

    The message of Luke 17 does refer to a third of Israelis in the flesh.
    They will be among those who are "left" to enter the Millennial Kingdom!

    But also the "whoever is willing to die...not seeking to save himself"...
    could refer to anyone who "begs for mercy" since "God is not willing
    that any should perish"! I see Muslims bowing and begging for mercy as Christ appears with ALL the Saints...no Believer is "left" behind!!

    Untold numbers of Gentiles will be saved during the Millennium. They are
    not the children of Tribulation surviving Believers who will ALL come
    with Christ. So the ones "left behind" are all of Israel PLUS millions of
    Gentiles who are "preserved...kept alive"!!! Luke 17:33.
    Mel Miller
    www.lastday.net
     
    #15 lastday, Jun 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2011
  16. Tom Butler

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    It's clear from the posts that there is no unanimity among pre-tribs about the rapture, the tribulation or who can be saved.

    Question: If the Holy Spirit is taken out at the pre-trib rapture, how are people saved during the tribulation?

    And if only Jews are saved, are they saved in a different way from Gentiles, or saved a different way from salvation prior to the rapture? In other ways, do Tribulational Jews have a different way to heaven?
     
  17. Jim1999

    Jim1999
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    Amillennialism makes more sense every day!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  18. kyredneck

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    Amen.

    *******



    26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.
    27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man (the presence of the Son of Man; YLT). Mt 24

    And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, Lo, there! Lo, here! go not away, nor follow after them, for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day. Lu 17:22-24

    Christ is telling them that 'in His day' [THAT BEING TODAY], He won't be 'in the desert' or in a 'secret chamber' or in Jerusalem or any other particular location on earth, He will be EVERYWHERE (as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west):

    But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

    For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

    And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

    So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

    For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

    Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

    And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

    All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

    Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

    And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

    22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
    3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

    And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

    At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

    They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

    God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.... Gen 9:27

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:43[/QUOTE]
     
    #18 kyredneck, Jun 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2011
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    In the classic pre trib view.....there are the 144000 jews who after the rapture, recognize what is going on...and they become evangelists
     
  20. righteousdude2

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    Personally Speaking: I Am an Avid Pan- millennialist!

    For you who may not be familiar with my theological stand on this issue, a Pan-millennialist simply believes that everything will...
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    Wait for it, it will be worth the "Scroll!"
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    :applause:
    PAN out in the end the end :smilewinkgrin:

    Shalom,

    Pastor Paul :type:
     

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