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Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Clean1, Jan 14, 2006.
What are the symptons of a lukewarm Christian? How do you know if you are lukewarm?
Raed about lukewarm Christianity in Revelation 3:14ff.
If you are concerned about your own spiritual condition, your concern may be in the wrong direction.
You may be a "babe" in Christ, that is, you have recently been born again, perhaps not lukewarm but carnal and struggling in your flesh to overcome with disappointments.
We have His Word and His Spirit for that remedy, get into the Book of 1 John.
1 John 1
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
The "lukewarm Christian", I believe, is the 'poser christian'. One who is not saved, but pretends to be. This is the one God vomits out.
as many denominations have become lukewarm in the past several decades.....and God will spew them out of His mouth.
a lukewarm christian is one who pretends to be saved and at the same time holds onto the world.
First of all the passage speaking about lukewarm Rev.3:15, is speaking about an assembly (curch) as a whole. Rev. 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans."
Although the church is comprised of the saved of Christ....this passage is speaking to the whole assembly....each and every church (local assembly) as within its realm lukewarm christians. But evedently this whole congregation had become lukewarm. I other words they had lost their zeal for the Lord. Or trying to ride the fence ( one foot in the world and one foot in Christ's work He had commissioned them to do.)
Secondly I believe Christ was addressing saved people because of the language used in verse 19 of this text...."As many as I love I chasten: be zealous therefor and repent"....When the word of God speaks of "chastening" it is speaking of correcting His children..... not the lost.
If you talk the talk but you don't walk the walk.
1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If the congregation was truly saved, why would Jesus "vomit" them out? Why would He rather them be hot (on fire and in fellowship) or cold (living an ungodly life)? Why would Jesus EVER want someone to live a "cold" life? The hot and cold refer to the aquaduct system of Laodicea...hot meaning medicinal waters pumped in from the north, and cold meaning the refreshing water from the south. Visitors would "vomit" out the disgusting, murky lukewarm water that resulted from the hot and cold because it was not fit for drinking. In context, the lukewarm cannot be believers. This was a gnostic church (as evidenced by the opening phrases in the letter) who denied Christ's deity. This would make it an unbelieving church filled with unbelievers. This is why "behold I stand at the door and knock..." is not in regards to fellowship with Christ as has been suggested, but to let Christ into their lives and church. Christ can never be on the outside looking in with a true believer.
Sort of like Eutychus sitting in the window in Acts 20? Wanting to hold onto the things of the world while staying in the church?
Notice the story of Eutychus. looking out the window, not paying attention to what was being preached. Fell asleep, and tumbled out the window. When one holds onto the world, one will surely fall. And, when one falls from a window, one can only expect one thing... a hard landing.
If you take that stand, I must ask you a few questions....
1. If this was an unsaved church, why did Christ even include them in the letters to the seven churches? Christ never addressed the lost as church any where in the New Testament.
2. Why did He use the word angel of the church in verse 14?
3. Show me in the New Testament any other scriptures where the lord speaks of chastening the lost? As far as I can see all other uses of this word deals with those who belong to His family and He loves as His children.
First, I don't recall Christ ever using the phrase church beside when He spoke to Peter. I might be wrong, but that is all I can think of right now off the top of my head. Second, just because the church at Laodicea was NOW a church of unbelievers teaching a false doctrine (1st century gnosticism), doesn't mean it was not founded on Christ. There are plenty of denominations today who profess Christ with their mouths, but are not biblical and do not teach salvation by grace through faith, hence they are "dead" churches. Notice in Rev. 3:14 that Christ called Himself "...the Beginning of the creation of God." This is the same phrase used by Paul to correct a heresy being taught in the church at Colosse, that Christ was a created being (Col. 1:15-20).
The angel referred to in the letters to the churches were not actual angels, as angels can never be leaders of a church, but "messengers" (the literal meaning of the word angel). They likely were the 7 key elders representing the 7 churches.
I take it you are referring to verse 19. However, the verse immediately prior and immediately following indicate Christ was speaking to unbelievers. While God certainly loves the lost (John 3:16), the word chasten (meaning literally, reprove) often refers to God's convicting and punishing the lost who have yet to accept Him.
2Ti 2:25(HCSB) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
Mat 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Arkie, why would Jesus EVER want somebody to be cold? Why would He rather someone be spiritually dead, than someone who was mediocre?
Why would He "vomit" a lukewarm believer out of His mouth? What can a true child of God ever do to be vomited (removed from the body), where Christ would have to stand on the outside knocking to get back in? I can't see how this would make sense considering it was Jesus Himself who said He would never leave, nor forsake us. The story of the prodical son is the perfect example why I would have a hard time accepting that those "vomited" were true believers.
First of all Chasten (paideuo) ...means :instruct: train up
Secondly I asked for any other place."in Scripture" where this word was used to address God dealing with the lost.
Thirdy I asked for Scriptures in God's word where the lost are called "CHURCH" ( scriptures only please)
I answered your questions, now answer mine please.
1. To correct by punishment; to punish; to inflict pain for the purpose of reclaiming an offender; as, to chasten a son with a rod.
I will chasten him with the rod of men. 2 Sam 7.
2. To afflict by other means.
As many as I love I rebuke and chasten. Rev 3.
3. To purify from errors or faults.
The Bible says "as many as I love I rebuke and chasten". Who does God love? For God so loved the WORLD Just because a word in the Bible refers mainly to one group of people the majority of the time, does not automatically mean this is the only group the word can apply to. Take the word "hate". Jesus says whoever hates his brother is a murderer. Later we are told to "hate" our father and mother. Same word, different meaning.
God would rather have somebody who is cold than lukewarm because that person wants to hold onto the world but at the same time wants to serve God. Its like were are so in love with the world that we don't want to let go. There is a verse in the Bible that says something like, "no man can have two masters. for he will hate the one and love the other or he will despise the one and cling to the other." something along those lines.
So you are saying God would rather have someone not be a Christian than be a backslidden believer? I have a hard time believing that.
Also, if you sin against God and backslide, does that mean since you are living for yourself you automatically "hate" God? The verse you quoted is talking about unbelievers, not believers who have fallen out of fellowship.
"Just because a word in the Bible refers mainly to one group of people the majority of the time, does not automatically mean this is the only group the word can apply to. Take the word "hate". Jesus says whoever hates his brother is a murderer. Later we are told to "hate" our father and mother. Same word, different meaning."
This is the same guy who castigates the Calvinists on this forum for pointing out that "world" and "all" don't always have the same meaning.
The double-standard is amazing...
Sorry, back to your regularly-scheduled discussion.
this is my last entry to you.
you completely disregarded my Question to you..to show me in Scriptures where God ever addresses a group of completely lost people as a Church or an indivual who is unsaved as part of His Church.
and your reply on chasten..please check out...you addressed II Sam. 7:14, which is a completely different word. This word is "yakaach"
with the meaning of....to convict, to make manifest. and even so if you take this verse in context, he is talking about David who I believe was a child of God.
I agree Clean1.
Its not that God would rather have someone be unsaved.....its that I believe God would rather have His child either completely ignore Him rather than have that child claim to be a Christian and then live a hypocritical life in front of unbelievers. Its those people who are saved but are ignoring the promptings of the Holy Spirit, quenching His voice within them, and claiming to be saved but just "coasting." Those who are just satisfied with going to church on Sundays and not doing anything else, and is in fact not living for Christ outside of church.
The lukewarm Christian is one who has lost his zeal for Christ. This does not mean he isn't saved.
The cold Christian is one who has "successfully" blocked the Holy Spirit's voice so much that he can't really hear it anymore. He doesn't even try to be close to Christ, and very often the world doesn't know who he is.
The world knows the lukewarm one is a Christian, but they also know he doesn't live like one. This is a far worse testimony for Christ than the cold Christian is.
So I take it you are not going to answer my questions to you. Thanks.
Because something cannot be shown from Scripture does not mean it is not true. The Bible never mentions "Trinity" either. I guess, according to you, it's a false doctrine. Show me from Scripture where Jesus is EVER on the outside of a believer. I won't hold my breath.