Luther's Lament: Fact or Fiction?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by WestminsterMan, Nov 17, 2011.

  1. WestminsterMan

    WestminsterMan
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    I've seen the following quote attributed to Luther only once, so I wonder if it is accuarte or whether he even said it at all.

    "The dissolution of the Protestant church is inevitable; her framework is so thoroughly rotten that no further patching will avail. The whole structure of evangelical religion is shattered, and few look with sympathy on its tottering fall. Within the compass of a square mile you hear four, five, six different gospels. The people, believe me, mark it will; they speak most contemptuously of their teachers, whom they regard either as blockheads or knaves, in teaching these opposite doctrines...growing immorality, a consequence of contempt for religion, concurs also as a cause to its deeper downfall. ...Oh Protestantism! has it, then, at last come to this with thee, that thy disciples protest against all religion? Facts, which are before the eyes of the whole world, declare aloud that this signification of thy name is no idle play upon words."

    Taken from “Facts about Luther” By: Msgr. Patrick F. O'Hare; TAN Books & Publishers, Inc.

    Thoughts?

    WM
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    This is absolutely true! The reason it is true is because Protestantism took with it various aspects of the leaven of Roman soteriolog and ecclesiology and a little leaven will eventually leaven the whole lump.

    Secondly, there are only two real gospels or ways of salvation. Rome is the most consistent advocate of "another gospel" or "broad way" and Baptists are the most consistent advocates of the true gospel and "narrow way". Everyone else is a mixture between the two. The problem is that when you mix the two "Lord, Lord...have we not done" you get SAND (mixture of rocks) rather than the solid "ROCK" and it ALONE is the foundation, NOT THE HOUSE or its condition which is built upon it that makes the house stand or fall in judgment.
     
    #2 The Biblicist, Nov 17, 2011
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  3. billwald

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    Dutch Reformed theology agrees, teaching that our sin nature contaminates all human activity including the church. This is why OPC Presbyterian attempts to bring in the Kingdom by imposing Levitical law on the world will fail, thus I say I would rather take my chances with islam than the OPC.

    Many Baptists I personally know have adopted OPC politics and theology without realizing it.
     
  4. Gup20

    Gup20
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    This is a foolish statement. There is only one Gospel, and it is the Gospel of Jesus Christ recorded in the Bible. The "narrow way" is through faith in Jesus Christ, and there is no other way to enter the kingdom of God (the "narrow way" is not the Baptist point of view).

    It is ironic that someone who's moniker is "biblicist" would purport something other than scripture as "gospel" (Rome and Baptists).
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    You don't have to get personal? Just state your opinon rather than make personal insinuations and/or scoffing remarks. You don't help your position by that kind of attitude.

    Factually you are wrong. The Bible clearly speaks of "another gospel" and "another Jesus" (Gal. 1:8-9; 2 Cor. 11:4). Those preaching it do not recognize it as "another" but they recognize is as the true gospel and condemn the actual true gospel as a false doctrine. They are "bewitched" (Gal. 3:1; 2 Cor. 11:3) by false teachers.


    2 Cor. 11:3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him


    Gal. 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    Gal. 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?


    Likewise, Matthew 7:13-23. The "many" in Matthew 7:13 do not believe the "way" they are going leads to hell but they think they are going the "way" to heaven. They have been deceived by false prophets - look at verses 15-20. The same "many" in verse 13 is the same "many" in verse 21-23 who sincerely beleive they are going to heaven.

    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
    15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


    Note the verses 15-20 provide the explanatory link for why the "many" in verse 13 will be deceived into thinking what is expressed by the "many" in verse 22 = the consequence of listening and following false teachers. They have been deceived by false prophets into thinking the "way" they are traveling is the right way. Contextually Jesus is referring to the Pharisees and Scribes but in regard to application it fits anyone who is following a wrong religious way or gospel thinking they are on the way to what they perceive as heaven.

    You are correct, that there is in reality no other true gospel and no other true way. However, you fail to recognize that when the true gospel or way is distorted in the minds of people then it becomes another gospel and way. Scriptures recognize and deal with the perception that people have of "another" Jesus, gospel and way, and the Bible addresses and recognizes that perception and condemns it. Hence, we have a Biblical basis to recognize the false gospel/way and those false teachers who propagate it (Mt. 7:15,20 "know").



    Please read the scriptures I gave and consider them carefully before making a response. Lighten up, I am not your enemy, I wish you well.
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Nov 17, 2011
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  6. billwald

    billwald
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    Why do the travelers need to know the proper name of the Gate?

    In Seattle the old US 99 from Mexico to Canada goes over the Aurora Bridge. There is no Aurora Bridge. It is the George Washington Memorial bridge. That doesn't stop people from using it.

    Jesus IS the way. If The American Indian People call him "The Great Spirit" . . . .
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    Do you mean like?
    same thing? Just curious. :)
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Karl Barth said free will is the dividing factor in the Church.

    He was right.
     
  9. billwald

    billwald
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    Thinkingstuff:

    Yes, something like "spirit in the sky."

    NT says someplace that no one can say "Jesus is Lord" unless it be through the Holy Spirit.

    Then there is the interesting story in Acts where the theoretically evil - possessed girl in Acts 16:16+ who pesters Paul by telling the truth about Paul preaching salvation. Don't ever recall hearing a sermon about it. Satan may be a liar from the beginning but is not a consistent liar? Who would be prompting this girl? Satan? The Holy Spirit? The story doesn't compute.

    I suspect there will be the same percentage of Mormons and Catholics in Heaven as Baptists and Presbyterians. And quite a few Moslems and Indian People . . . .
     
  10. Gup20

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    I apologize for the personal attack. Believe me when I say it was not my intention to attack you personally. I said "this is a foolish statement" not "you are a foolish person". The attack was levied against your statements, not your person.

    Indeed there are many "gospels" but you didn't refer to "gospels" you referred to "real gospels". There is only one "real gospel".
    Gal. 3:1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    This is precisely the verse I was parroting when I attacked your statement as foolish. Just as Paul calls their doctrine foolish compared to the real gospel of Jesus Christ, I called your statement that there is more than one real gospel foolish.

    Indeed, that was my point.

    Indeed, and I found it Ironic that someone who's name is "biblicist" would say that there was more than one "real" gospel when the Bible only supports one real gospel.

    I trust that to be true.
     

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