Magog and the Mideast

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Judith, Apr 13, 2014.

  1. Judith

    Judith
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    10
    With what is happening with Russia today I found this article both informative and interesting. I believe that the US has to fall from being a world power and I also believe we are on a fast track to that with our national debt which will help bring us down. In fact I believe we have already fallen in part and do not yet recognize what the rest of the world is seeing.
    http://thethings2come.org/?p=966
     
  2. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Or.......

    http://americanvision.org/1727/battle-of-gog-magog/#sthash.OuvCcsC9.dpbs
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
    3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
    7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. Rev 20

    The war occurs after the 'thousand year reign' of Revelation, and Israel is symbolic of the much greater 'Israel of God' i.e. 'the camp of the saints', not just a small piece of land in the Middle East.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Apr 14, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2014
  4. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Wasn't much of a war was it? Another picture!

    Revelation 19:11-21
    11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    18. That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    19. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    It is very sad that some folks think there is going to be a real physical battle at a place called Armageddon between God and Satan!
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    Lol! Not to have God tell it!

    We are carnal by our very nature. It's the natural inclination to expect that which can be seen with the eye and touched with the hand, and miss the spiritual nature of the Everlasting Covenant.
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why in the world would biblical truth be called "sad"?

    By the way, it is the armies of the world vs. Jesus, not Satan vs. Jesus. If you're going to disparage biblical prophecy, at least get the piece you're disparaging right.
     
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    I agree with OR. It's sad that someone with your IQ won't see that it's Satan that's behind the armies of the world. (it was the Serpent that bruised His heel, but it was that evil generation of Jews that was the channel through which it was manifested)

    This conflict IS the very same as laid out in Gen 3:15, as Pink called it, 'the seed germ' of all prophecy.
     
    #8 kyredneck, Apr 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2014
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Yes, we can tell by the exegesis you provided.
     
  10. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    Hal Lindsay was enriched by his sensational speculation concerning Russia of his day.
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    It is still very sad, I would say even pathetically sad, that some folks think there is going to be a real physical battle at a place called Armageddon between God and Satan! One would think that they could understand that the creator of all that exists does not have to play WAR GAMES. This is particularly true given the Scripture presented in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation16:13-17.
     
    #11 OldRegular, Apr 15, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2014
  12. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is sad is that someone who is intelligent and obviously faithful would reject so much of God's word as "symbolic," when they claim to read the rest of His message literally.

    The key focus and main premise of dispensational premillennialism is that Jesus will literally return to the earth before the millennial reign, and even He himself will inaugurate and rule over.

    Dispensational premillennialists hold that:
    • ... the second coming of Christ, and subsequent establishment of the millennial kingdom, is to be preceded by a seven-year-long period known as the “Tribulation,” the earthly activity of the Antichrist as well as the outpouring of God’s wrath on mankind.
    • ... the faithful -- or remnant, if you will -- of the nation of Israel will be saved and restored to a place of preeminence in the millennium.
    • ... that Israel will have a special function of service in the millennium that is different from that of the Church or saved Gentiles.
    • ... the millennium is for a literal 1000 years.
    • ... the millennium will be a period of history in which God fulfills His Old Testament promises made to ethnic Israel, after this modern Church Age in which we live today is concluded.
    • ... the millennium will be a state of Jewish dominion over all the physical world, along with a newly restored Jewish temple and priesthood.
    • ... the Christians who reign with Christ will all have been given eternal, glorified bodies, and will reign spiritually, while the Jews will own the world physically, and will live, marry, and die (although evincing incredible longevity), just as people have throughout the history of the world.
    That last point is supported in Isaiah, and must be dispensed with -- literally ignored or negated -- for your view to be correct, because these events have never happened, either literally or figuratively, and the nuance and syntax in the Hebrew indicates it must be taken literally.
    Isaiah 65, NASB
    20 "No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
    Or an old man who does not live out his days;
    For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.
    21 "They will build houses and inhabit them;
    They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
    22 "They will not build and another inhabit,
    They will not plant and another eat;
    For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
    And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
    23 "They will not labor in vain, Or bear children for calamity;
    For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD, And their descendants with them.
    24 "It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.
    25 "The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food. They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD. ​
    Isaiah wrote 800 years before Christ. Feel free to tell me what period of history these events have already occurred.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53

    You must be able to determine that which is symbolic and that which is to be taken literally. I have previously posted Scripture which shows the fulfillment of two Old Testament prophecies, one from Joel written in apocalyptic language and fulfilled at Pentecost the second fulfilled, according to James, when Peter preached to the Gentile Cornelius and his household. Do you believe that the following is to be taken literally?

    John 6:53-57
    53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
    54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
    56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.


    Aren't you forgetting the place the pre-trib "snatching away" of the Church has in dispensational eschatology.?


    1. So in your dispensational millennium you have Jesus Christ reigning in the full glory of the Godhead.

    2. You have a faithful remnant of Israel who are saved. In what way are they faithful and how are they saved. If they are faithful and saved they must have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior so now they are Christians, not Jews or Israelites.

    3. Saved Gentiles? Same question as above.

    4. Where in Scripture does it say that this Church age will be concluded? Where in Scripture does it say that the Church will be "snatched away' prior to any "great tribulation"?

    5. So we have Jesus Christ reigning in the full glory of the Godhead and an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec and the Jews rebuild the temple and reestablish the Levitical priesthood and offer blood sacrifices? So what is the purpose of the blood sacrifices when the only sacrifice that counts took place 2000 years ago?

    6. We have Christians in glorified bodies reigning with Jesus Christ in the full glory of the Godhead living on earth with mortal man. We have mortal man procreating and dying and offering blood offerings for a period of 1000 years. Yet Scripture tells us that mortal man cannot look on the glory of God and live [Exodus 33:20]! I especially call your attention to the following Scripture:

    1 Timothy 6:13-16
    13.I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
    14.That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.



    According to Isaiah 65:17 it will be fulfilled in the New Heavens and New Earth, not in a Jewish millennium.

    Isaiah 65:17-20
    17. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    18. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    19. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    20. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
     
  14. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you understand what double- and triple-fulfillment of prophecy is? That answers your question.
    The First Century resident of Judah understood what Jesus said in this passage immediately, but there was absolutely no thought that Jesus was speaking of cannibalism. They did, however, take it literally. Can you tell me how they did so? If you can factually do so, that is your answer.
    No, not in the least.
    No. The thousand year reign is prior to the reign of Christ on Earth, prior to the New Heaven and New Earth being instituted.
    You forget the promises of Messiah were made to the Jews first, so it is first their religion. We "Gentiles" came along, received and believed the Gospel, as the result of its initial rejection by the Jews. That does not mean they cannot be offered it again, and they will be, at which time the faithful remnant among them will believe, and receive, as the nation of Israel, the promises given them, while we, the Church will have received, prior to the Tribulation, the promise that we will not be subject to God's judgmental wrath on the world, having been raptured before it began.
    You don't understand that non-Jews are Gentiles?

    [​IMG] <--- pun intended
    I know you've been given the Scripture addresses supporting the Doctrine of the Rapture many, many times. You've attempted -- but failed -- to refute them. One more time (and I'll let you look them up as there are many), John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; 2 Corinthians 11:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 4:13-18; 5:9; Revelation 1:7, 3:10; 4:1.
    Antichrist makes treaty with Israel -- the physical nation of Israel, who at the beginning of the Tribulation are not believers as are you and I -- to allow them make sacrifices in their temple. It could be they are making those sacrifices before he comes to power, and this treaty is to allow them to continue, under his world leadership/dictatorship.
    Not until after the Tribulation, no. But afterward, yes.
    And you completely ignore that the disciples looked upon Jesus and lived.
    And that denies the pretribulational Rapture and seven years' Tribulation exactly how? The appearance of the Lord will be to Christians only, so keeping the commandments until then makes sense, does it not?
    And ... ? If you deny the Tribulation, you must deny everything thereafter too. Therefore, what you're posting here, from your standpoint, is jibberish.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Because of the length of my response I am including my initial questions or comments. I would also note that you did not respond to all.

    Not really but if that is the best you can do!


    I am not concerned about the first century Jews understanding of this passage. They cared little to nothing about understanding Jesus Christ. I ask if you interpret this passage literally you have not answered so I ask again: Are you like the Roman Catholics and apply a literal interpretation to this Scripture. Is the wafer and wine {or grape juice} really the body and blood of Jesus Christ?


    Just checking!

    Then where are Jesus Christ and the Church during this 1000 years. How about Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    This passage states that those of the first resurrection, I assume that, according to Dispensational doctrine, those are the Raptured Saints who reigning during this 1000 years with Jesus Christ.

    So you are saying that this faithful remnant believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Who preached the Gospel to them since the Church is no longer on earth.

    So the Gentiles are saved like the Jewish remnant. Of course someone has to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to them. Since the Jews are primarily from the tribe of Judah along with some Levites what about the other eleven tribes of Israel. Are they among the Gentile people? Just curious since you say non-Jews are Gentiles!


    Thanks I believe I will simply post them for the convenience of folks who may not comprehend how Darby arrived at his erroneous doctrine. I believe I will present these verses in context without posting too much Scripture.

    John 14:1-3
    1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


    I looked but I don’t see Rapture, or “snatching away”, to pre-trib. Strange is it not. In truth all this Scripture tells us is exactly what it says:

    1. Jesus Christ will be leaving.
    2. He will prepare a place for the Saints.
    3. He will return so they can be with Him.​

    It is nonsensical eisegesis for dispensationalists to use this Scripture to validate the false doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.

    *********************************************************************

    1 Corinthians 15:51-58
    51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    58. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


    The primary purpose of Paul’s 1st letter to the Church at Corinth is to remove any uncertainty about the essential nature of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and then to show that He is the guarantee of our resurrection. He tells us:

    1 Corinthians 15:12-14
    12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.


    In the passage you mistakenly say proves a pre-trib rapture the Apostle is simply explaining what takes place when our mortal bodies which are corrupt are resurrected; changed into incorruptible and immortal bodies that can never die. As in the case of John 14:3 it pathetically poor eisegesis for dispensationalists to use this Scripture to validate the false doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.

    ************************************************************************

    2 Corinthians 11:2. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

    That the dispensationalists would use this passage of Scripture to justify their erroneous doctrine of the rapture is really beyond reason to the point of irrationality. What more can be said? Only this: You are saying in effect that if the Church is not raptured they cannot be presented as a Chaste Virgin to Jesus Christ.

    *************************************************************************

    Continued in following post.
     
    #15 OldRegular, Apr 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2014
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    ***

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
    13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Apparently the believers in the Church at Thessalonica were looking for the soon return of Jesus Christ. They were confused about what happened to those Saints who had already died. The Apostle Paul comforts them with the above Scripture. Again it is nonsensical eisegesis for dispensationalists to use this Scripture to validate the false doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.

    ***

    1 Thessalonians 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    I have already used that passage above to demonstrate that the pre-trib rapture has no basis in Scripture. The doctrine of the “snatching away” of the Church gives the lie to the instructions of Jesus Christ in
    Matthew 28:16-20
    16. Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
    17. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
    18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


    Jesus Christ did not say teach and baptize until I “snatch” you out of this world to escape tribulation but until the end of the world and that He would always be with them and us! I have already presented the Scripture which tells us that in this world we have tribulation but Jesus Christ has overcome the world {John 16:33}.

    ***

    Revelation 1:7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    A most wonderful passage of Scripture picturing the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. We read:

    1. Every eye shall see Him!
    2. Including those who killed Him!
    3. All the wicked shall wail because of His return!​

    When the 6th seal is opened and time as we know it is no more we read of the cry of the wicked:
    Revelation 6:12-17
    12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17. For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    Now TND has said that this is a picture of the “snatching away” of the Church. Yet the passage states that every eye shall see Him, including those who pierced Him. Now how is it possible that those who killed Jesus Christ will see His Second Coming when they are dead. The obvious answer is that the general resurrection of John 5:28, 29 has taken place and those who killed Jesus Christ can then witness His return.

    ***

    Revelation 3:7-11.
    7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
    8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
    9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
    10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
    11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


    The little Church at Philadelphia, commended for its faithfulness.

    Departing from their insistence on literal interpretation dispensationalists allegorize here and say this Church represents churches when? Well It must be at the time of the Rapture so it is doubtful that the Rapture will ever occur, I mean that if only Churches like that at Philadelphia are “snatched away” and spared the so-called 7 year tribulation a lot of Saints are going to be left behind and that doesn’t fit dispensational doctrine.

    ***

    Revelation 4:1, 2
    1. After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
    2. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


    The beloved Apostle John is taken to heaven, not bodily but in the spirit, and all the Church in resurrection and glorified bodies follow him. Forgive me folks! :BangHead:


    Unmitigated gibberish and UnScriptural to the extreme. It reads like a bad dream, a nightmare, perhaps that of Margaret MacDonald.

    One additional comment on a remark in the above gibberish,

    I assume you fell asleep at the keyboard TND. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ laid aside His Glory while on earth the first time? What I said earlier still stands. Mortal man cannot look on the Glory of God and live[Exodus 33:20]! I especially call your attention to the following Scripture:

    1 Timothy 6:13-16
    13.I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
    14.That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
    [/quote]
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    My apologies folks. Becasi I has to split my response to TND the following comments were inadvertently "Left Behind"!

    1 Thessalonians 1:7-10
    7. So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
    8. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
    9. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
    10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


    Scripture tells that because of sin all mankind are under the wrath of God. Scripture also tells us that through Jesus Christ true believers escape the wrath of God.

    Romans 1:18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    Then how are we to escape that wrath? There is only one way. Speaking of the believer the Apostle Paul tells us: 1Thessalonians 5:9.For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    The believer escapes the wrath of God because of his faith, because of salvation through Jesus Christ, not because God “snatches” him out of the world. Consider how silly is this doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. Those who are saved before the so-called tribulation will escape whatever happens to the believer during the so-called tribulation. Those people who are saved during the tribulation will have to endure whatever happens to the believer during the so-called tribulation.

    If the believer is to escape tribulation why in the world did Jesus Christ tell us: John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
     
  18. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    OldRegular:

    You've posted a great deal of verbiage overnight while I was doing more productive things -- like watching the Royals beat the Astros in 11, and sleeping. I have spent the last 30 minutes wading through this, and I am struck by how poorly you interpret the Scriptures you quote, and how many companion Scriptures you blatantly ignore because they upset your apple cart. I'm not even going to attempt to take up the screen space or irritate the trillions of electrons it would require to point all of those out. I'm sure you'll leap to the self-satisfied conclusion that I cannot provide refutation. You would be wrong.

    I just see no point in providing lunch to self-satiated man.

    I instead have chosen to focus on this:
    This is a strong indication you don't understand who Jesus was addressing in His three and half years of ministry on Earth, nor do you understand the requirement to read not just the Gospels but the entire Bible with historical and social context in mind. Otherwise, you completely miss the point -- and you obviously have.
    No, I did answer you question, pointing out who Jesus was addressing and implying with explanation that they knew He was not speaking of cannibalism, and challenged you to tell me what it meant. You chose not to do so.

    I interpret John 6 as it was spoken to the First Century Jew. In this passage, Jesus provides His disciples and followers confirmation that He is, indeed, Messiah. Those who walked away from Him were not interested in a life-changing spiritual experience, as He was offering by those words. They were interested in another free lunch, and in fact as many as they could con out of Him. Do you understand it correctly, or not?
     
    #18 thisnumbersdisconnected, Apr 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2014
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53


    The simple truth is that the doctrine that was developed by John Nelson Darby and very sadly popularized by the Darby's disciple in this country, Cyrus Scofield, cannot be defended from Scripture. Your posts and subsequent refusal to answer certain questions give ample proof that the doctrine called dispensationalism cannot be defended by Scripture.

    Both Darby and Scofield were sufficiently clever to take advantage of the interest in Biblical prophecy of the 19th century to seduce many who wanted their ears tickled by a something NEW.
     
  20. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2013
    Messages:
    8,448
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wrong.

    It is New Testament theology that was written about as early as the Second Century.

    Justin Martyr (AD 100-165): According to Larry V. Crutchfield. Professor of Early Christian History & Culture Columbia Evangelical Seminary, Longview, WA., Justin believed in four phases of human history in God's program. The first was from Adam to Abraham; the second was from Abraham to Moses; the third was from Moses to Christ; and the fourth was from Christ to the eternal state.

    Irenaeus (AD 120-202): Also according to Prof. Crutchfield, the dispensational scheme of Irenaeus is four in number. They are:
    1. From the Creation to the Flood.
    2. From the Flood to the Law.
    3. From the Law to the Gospel.
    4. From the Gospel to the Eternal State.
    He taught that there were four zones of the world, of time, and of mankind. He saw a connection between these zones, the faces of the "four living creatures", the four gospels and the four dispensations.

    You don't want to acknowledge that, fine. Stop ignoring the historical evidence to the contrary, though. It is dishonest.

    One must not neglect the important study of dispensations. The Bible clearly teaches their existence. Church history reveals that the early fathers believed in different administrations and economies within the Scriptures and that belief in them does not have a late date. Dispensationalism is not the recent invention of Darby and Scofield, as willfully disingenuous or simply uninformed like to state.

    The teaching of dispensations does not lead one to the conclusion that other parts of the Bible are unimportant or uninspired. Dispensationalism must not be ignored by God's people, neither will it harm any church if it is taught properly and extremes are avoided. It is not contrary to the Bible, but in fact is the best theological framework to explain the Bible.

    The local church is to baptize converts and observe the Lord's Supper. We believe that the winning of souls and sending missionaries into all the world with the gospel is the main business of the Church. We are to feed the flock of God, edify the saints and preach the Word. However, the only way these can be biblically obeyed is to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Obedience to that one command forces one to teach dispensations. Otherwise one is in woeful danger of misunderstanding what God has said, and what He will do in the future.

    Done here. God bless.
     
    #20 thisnumbersdisconnected, Apr 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2014

Share This Page

Loading...