Malachi 3:8-11...The CHURCH??

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Gregory Perry Sr., Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] Okay...I know the preachers in here may go off on me but I am personally tired of being beat over the head by otherwise solid men of God who use this passage to impose tithing on the church in the present age of grace and slam their people as being God robbers from the pulpit.I love my own pastor dearly but I do disagree with him on this.For years I just accepted what I was told on that subject and tried my best to faithfully tithe....even bounced checks trying to do it.
    In another thread in this forum I posted a subject seeking the rules of proper biblical interpretation.One of those issues is definitely "context" and this passage,if I read my bible correctly,is specifically addressed to the nation of Israel..right or wrong????Comments on this????As a matter of fact,Malachi himself clearly establishes this in the very first verse of the very first chapter of the book when he says,"The burden of the word of the Lord[TO ISRAEL](emphasis mine)by Malachi."
    I will state for the record that I no longer practice storehouse tithing as taught and preached on by probably the majority of Baptist preachers today.It grieves me somewhat to hear people put under and Old Testament curse(vs.9) when we should not be.I believe that we are under a higher principle in the New Testament dispensation...and that is that we have been "bought with a price...."Everything that we have belongs to God.While I don't believe in "tithing" I do believe and I do practice that we should seek to glorify God in all we do and give as much as possible to futher the work of God in our day and age.The local church is NOT a biblical "storehouse" in the old testament sense.I do believe that as God prospers me(and you) we should support the ministries of our local church with our time and our money and also support whatever our works of God he directs us to support.He OWNS 100% of us.We should prayerfully give as He directs us.We will be held accountable for it at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
    I just don't think preachers should legalistically put their "flocks" under an Old Testament curse to "fund" the church today.To do that jerks that whole passage out of the "context" in which it was given.JMHO
    To quote what I have told my own preacher...and I mean it sincerely from the heart...I WANT to give...generously...I just wish I had MORE so I could do that.I think it is wrong to not meet the needs of your family or your financial obligations in order to "obey" the law of the tithe in this dispensation.The balance to that is that God does indeed own it ALL...it is His...so we should be wise and good stewards of that which God gives us.

    Greg Sr. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  2. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    We have an excellent Bible teacher who goes around teaching at churches. He even taught at our church once.

    The man was supposed to know almost the entire Bible by heart and was always doctrinally sound (I don't mean that he followed Baptist doctrine, it was just that his interpretations of the Bible were pretty much the classical interpretations.)

    He was well known and wanted as a Bible teacher.

    Right up until he said tithing was not part of the New Testament doctrine. Guess what? Over just one disagreement out of the entire Bible-- not a preacher in the area wants him near their church. :D [​IMG] :rolleyes: [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  3. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Guess he knows his Bible a little too well for them... :rolleyes:

    Rob
     
  4. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    ;) Come on people....Is there NOBODY in here that is interested in a good discussion about whether we are "God-robbing" if we don't Tithe as New Testament believers.....I'm shocked!

    Greg Sr. :eek: [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep. I'll take it! Have written a little on the subject. Be back later with a post.
     
  6. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] Thanks RJ...having read many of your other posts I'll look forward to seeing what you have on this.I'm interested in seeing the case made from both points of view in a balanced,contextual method.Show us what ya got!!!

    Greg Sr.(I love a good debate) [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPS,

    You have covered the issue pretty well in your OP. I fully agree with you. I have anticipated some of the standard arguments in my response.

    I would contend that the principles for New Testament giving should come from passages like Acts 20:35; Rom 12:8; 1Cor 9:13-14; 16:1-2; 2Cor 8:1-5; 9:6-7; and 1Tim 5:18 to name a few.

    The pattern for giving post-cross is that it is to be regular, proportional, and sacrificial. I can find chapter and verse for these concepts (in the New Testament) 1Cor 16:1-2; 2Cor 8:1-5, esp v. 3. Only place the word tithe (tenth) appears in Scripture after the resurrection is in Hebrews 7 by way of historical reference. How has this become not only ““the Law and the Testimony”” for New Testament believers in most Baptist churches, but a most sure test of faith and fellowship? Just how far do we go in protecting our traditions from the searchlight of repeated examination in light of clear teachings of the New Testament?

    Personally, I believe that a tithe should be the absolute minimum for a Christian. To whom much is given and all that. I can certainly argue that we have received much more grace through the abundance of revelation than the OT saints. But demand tithing for post-resurrection, post-law, post-Israel NT believers? Anybody got chapter and verse?

    Is this a sacred cow? The tenth one under the fence (Lev 27:32)? Don't touch the holy cow!

    There are those who argue that Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek hundreds of years before the Mosaic Law. OK. So what? It was one time, only on the spoils, and never repeated as far as Scripture records.

    Should we argue that the Sabbath should be observed today because it predates the law? This one goes all the way back to Eden. Not only does this command predate the law, it predates the fall! AND you can find ample evidence that the early Christians regularly went to the Synagogue on the Sabbath in Acts. In fact, it was a normal practice. You cannot find any evidence that they practiced tithing.

    Again, I believe that NT believers should give sacrificially and that 10 percent should generally be a minimum (can't be real dogmatic there though). I just don't think we should teach it on the basis of Old Testament law that has been nailed to the Cross!

    The Sabbath predates both the law and the fall, as noted above. Further, the instance of tithing before the law was voluntary, one time only, and only on the spoils of that particular conquest. Most people who teach tithing as binding on NT believers today don’’t follow the pre-law pattern illustrated by Abraham’’s offering to Melchizedek.. They follow the Mal 3 pattern, clearly identified as ““the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi ”” (Mal 1:1).

    What I am against is teaching Old Testament Law as applicable to New Testament believers and that the blessings and curses that were part of the OT covenants have direct application to NT saints. If a preacher wants to stand and declare that Malachi 3:8-10 has direct application to the church, I have a problem with that. Sure, I know most of them do it. And usually I just listen quietly. I just have yet to find a sound biblical defense of the practice and I read everything I can find on that subject.
     
  8. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] Ditto that RJ!!!..plus the fact that in the OT the tithe was never MONEY(even though they had it)but instead it was the fruit of the ground or the flock or herds,etc.It was only money if you lived too far away from the chosen location that God designated for the people to bring them to.Then you could redeem the goods for money but you had to add 5%.Also...the tithe was to be received by the Levites(Priest)....hummmm...we don't seem to have any of those guys around today do we?No...we don't...and they were Israelites anyway.As for the church being a "storehouse"...well...I have yet to find a storage facility in any Baptist church or any other either that would accommodate the storage of livestock,dry goods,or substantial quantities of fruit and vegetables.The storehouse was just that...a storehouse...NOT a bank.
    Folks...I'm NOT trying to be glib or sarcastic...I'm just trying to show that we have liberty in grace...we are not under law.YES...we most definitely should GIVE....ABUNDANTLY as God prospers us.Also...I most certainly believe that the good,honorable,hard-working men of God that shepherd us should be supported financially by us.God will sort out the lazy ones.Preachers...have a little FAITH...if you honor God in your labors and teach your people NT sacrificial giving He will provide for the needs of the church and you without you having to threaten your people to get the money.Malachi 3 is NOT for this dispensation.Giving under grace and by faith is a blessing...not an obligation.

    God Bless You,Greg Sr. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  9. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would argue that one can't go to very far with that Law vs Grace thingy.
    For example, in Hebrews we are given a lengthy catalogue of folks, (both under and before Law) that are our examples of faith. They were pre-cross after all! They should have been following the Law right? But we see liars, and prostitutes in the list.
    In that same vein of truth, tithing is a faith issue. Tithing should be a minimum standard for a believer. If he is truly concerned about gving sacrificially then I submit that a tenth of ones increase would be a good STARTING place.
    I am not persuaded by youse guys. It is my experience that they who kick against tithing for a NT church are usually they who kick agianst other NT practices. Not saying YOU are one of them Greg or RJ. But that has been my experience.
    You all already know the Scriptural support both for and agaisnt, so I will not waste my/your time with a cut and paste job.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  10. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jim,

    I would argue that you can't go to far with the law grace thing! We are not under law, but under grace!

    Does that mean no GRACE in the OT? Certainly not. From the very first sin we see God's grace -- the animals died, not Adam and Eve, at least not right away. But God provided a covering for their nakedness (and sin, imo).

    The Law is done away, nailed to the cross, let no man judge us. Even if not, it was never for Gentiles anyway! How can you go to far in saying that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant?

    Re the one person who was the liar and harlot in Heb 11, that is just an example of God’s grace. What does that have to do with tithing?Jim,

    I would argue that you can't go to far with the law grace thing! We are not under law, but under grace!

    Does that mean no GRACE in the OT? Certainly not. From the very first sin we see God's grace -- the animals died, not Adam and Eve, at least not right away. But God provided a covering for their nakedness (and sin, imo).

    The Law is done away, nailed to the cross, let no man judge us. Even if not, it was never for Gentiles anyway! How can you go to far in saying that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant?
     
  11. izzaksdad

    izzaksdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    I stand by my original post on this issue. AV1611 is headed in the right direction. I firmly believe that if you take the entirety of Scripture, the principle of tithing is there in bold print. I certainly hope those in our churches don't want to do away with the 10 Commandments...oh yeah, maybe there is a little more to back them up in NT...

    The bottom line is that the 10th is the starting place, it is a matter of obedience, and most who argue against tithing or giving I have found, are the ones who choose not to worship the Lord in this way.

    As a matter of fact, ALL OF US have more to give. To say we don't is a bit of a scapegoat on the issue. If we sacrificed a little more daily in the non-essentials(cable tv, cell phones, pepsi cola and moon pies, internet connection [sorry baptistboard admin]eating out, recreation, chewing, smokin', dippin' etc., we could give more. However, that would be seen as meddlin' and not preachin', so we can be content to rob...uh, I mean, withold from our God.

    We are all guilty, this Pastor included and this Pastor chiefly, of not giving to God like we should- not just treasure, but time and talents. Pray for me that I would be more and do more for my Savior- not for salvation, but from salvation!

    :( [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    izzaksdad,

    If you take the entirety of Scripture why do you meet on Sunday? Do you mow your grass on Saturday, or allow someone else to mow it? How can you not keep the fourth commandment which is clearly part of the 10 you want to keep and then argue for tithing which is not part of the 10?!?!?

    All of the Mosaic Law was nailed to the cross! Can you deny this? How can you preach as if it were not so and argue for tithing based on the entirety of Scripture? I would suggest that not eating pork is in BOLD AND UNDERLINED if you take the entirety of Scripture!

    Yes, I do understand that you are standing by your original post. The question I ask, from the perspective of the Law having been nailed to the cross is, WHY? Is it OK to just insist that our churches do something because it is a Baptist tradition? Or because it was a Jewish obligation under the Mosaic law? Is that a sufficient basis to proclaim something as binding on believers? Where does it end?
     
  13. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    [​IMG] Guys(and girls)...I just want to make the point that this subject,as well as the many others that can be tackled from a biblical perspective MUST be handled not only IN CONTEXT...but the teaching and truth of it MUST be held CONSISTENTLY throughout by comparing scripture WITH scripture.It was for this very reason...and the apparent inconsistency of the Tithing position that I started the other thread regarding Bible Interpretation.I want only the truth...nothing else really matters.God expects us(and rightly so)to believe AND obey His Word in whatever way it applies to us.I know I fall far short of this truth many times over....but in my heart (the new one He gave me when He saved me)I want to obey.The flesh doesn't always cooperate.

    Greg Sr. [​IMG]
     
  14. Alcott

    Alcott
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    7,453
    Likes Received:
    93
    Giving a tenth, and more, as many churches want to grovel and plead for, can actually undermine the real goal of NT giving, which is giving to those in need. Instead of carrying it out biblically, most churches want new carpets, stained glass windows, pipe organs, complex sound systems, more "dynamic" ministers and accomodating their demands of office space, assistants, communication systems (not to mention all the 'perks' offered by business men and women who want to get in good with them).

    Giving among churches today is a long way from the NT ideals, which grew churches under persecution for their lives and did without all this elaborate junk most think is so important. I really think the deliberate abuse of these Malachi passages for purposes which have little, if any, relation to the true NT church as presented in NT scripture is one of the best examples of "the love of many cooling off" at best and "forsaking of the faith" at worst.

    For those who hold the opposite view: If a farmer actually brought in to your church a tenth of his corn harvest, or a rancher drove in a tenth of his marketable herd [bringing all the tithe in that there may be food in the house], what would you or your church do with it?
     
  15. izzaksdad

    izzaksdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    pipe down a little rjp! i thought this was friendly banter between folk who are ultimately on the same side!

    I, like you, am learning and still trying to figure things out. I know many hold to the view that tithing is not applicable for us in this dispensation of grace. However, my thesis is built around several principles:

    Abraham tithed off of the top of the spoils to Melchizedek (type of Christ)at least 400 years before the giving of the law. Melchizedek was "the priest of the most High God." The tithe was a central act of worship of Israel throughout the dispy of the law. Our Savior lived in that era, and it was He who affirmed the tithe in the NT- Mt. 23:23b. In this dispy that we now live in, it is Christ- the perfect High Priest who receives our tithes and offerings- Heb. 7:8

    The tithe was in existence long before the law- Gen. 14:20, 28:19-22

    When the law was given, the tithe was a major princoiple- Lev.27:30. In NT, it is hard to argue that Jesus did not practice and approve of tithing. In Mt. 23:23 (often misinterpreted therefore misapplied), Jesus is rebuking the pharisees hypocritical naturee and not their practice of tithing. 'these things ye OUGHT to do'. Word ought can be translated as "must"- it is an imperative. Jesus saw the tithe as a heavenly requirement. how could we under grace give less than the Jews gave under the law?

    I Corinthians 16:1-2- "as he may prosper"- that is a definate proportion of income. That proportion, as I believe the Bible attests to, is the 10th. the 10th is equal for everyone.However, it is not a stopping point, it is a beginning point.

    The tithe is the Lord's. The Bible teaches that it is holy unto Him. The bottom line however is that God owns it all. It is a shame many times that preachers, myself included, promote the 10th, as if the other 90% that God allowed me to have is mine to use anyway I choose. it is all His.

    This subject will always be of controversy. I certainly am not finished studying on this matter. I hope to study it and many other nuggets from the Word for the rest of my days.

    let's agree on one thing anyway: "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." LET'S TELL THE WORLD OF THE LOVE OF JESUS AND HIS SAVING GRACE!

    BTW, you are very well versed and obviously very sharp rjprince. I like a good challenge.
     
  16. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,118
    Likes Received:
    319
    I disagree. Here is my scripture:

    2 Corinthians 9:7
    Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    Give by faith, whether 1, 10, 75 or whatever percent.

    ...the just shall live by faith.

    Another point which I didn't see (maybe it was there and I missed it) in this thread is that even under the law, the wage-earner was not required to tithe but those who worked and lived off their apportionment of the Promised Land.

    Another point is that the Malachi scolding was primarily written to the priests (Malachi 3:3) who apparently were absconding too much of the tithes being brought to them and not leaving anything for the widow and the fatherless.

    That is not to say that the tithe is forbidden in the NT but if it is used as a measure then it should be done in faith.

    There is no sin if one's faith is not yet large enough to give a tithe.

    Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.


    HankD
     
  17. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'dad,

    Sorry, get a bit carried away sometimes. I used to teach tithing to my people, even after reading some good arguments against it being binding on NT believers. And sorry if I come across sometimes as having it all figured out. I am a student of the Word, not a scholar.

    We certainly do agree on God's grace! No argument there at all. Tithing is just one of those areas that I have givena lot of time in order to find out the Biblical perspective for NT believers. Semper reformandum, always reforming.

    Now back to the issue...

    Abraham paid a voluntary tithe on the spoils of that one conquest. No indication it was ever repeated. Jacob's vow was pretty self serving and not a very good pattern for either OT or NT saints. There is no indication he ever paid his vow.

    The rest of tithing is clearly under the law. The command to tithe is part of the law. The practice of tithing is tied to the law. Mal 3:8-10 is to Israel and the sons of Jacob (1:1,2; 3:6).

    At our church (Berea Baptist, www.bereachurch.org) we do not even pass the collection plate! Can we still claim to be Baptist without passing the plate at least once, right after the Pastor's 2 minute sermonette on tithing? That's gotta be a violation of some Baptist rule somewhere!
     
  18. izzaksdad

    izzaksdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think that rule is in the table of contents of our pulpit Bible... (NIV) [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Let me do some more research, and we will continue the spar!
     
  19. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey guys...just bringing this thread back to the top for some more action! RJ...I think you said you might have more to say on this in a PM you sent me.I was enjoying watching you and Izzaksdad go at this one.Spar on guys...and anybody else jump in if ya feel froggy.

    Greg Sr.
     
  20. rjprince

    rjprince
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    GPS,

    Can't recall if it was more on this one or more on another thread?

    Not sure if it has been said or not, but I do believe that teaching tithing as a NT principle is "robbing God". Everything we have is HIS. Never seen a u-haul behind a hearse. We are leaving it all (material that is). However, if we invest in the right things, we can take it with us!!! How about investing in the lives of family, co-workers, friends, and neighbors! Their souls are eternal, and if we lead them to the Lord, we can take 'em along!

    Tithing as commonly taught is many BCs is giving to God that portion that belongs to Him. I disagree here as well! It all belongs to Him. It is not as if we give 10% and the rest is ours (as is the net effect of most tithe-teaching). It is all HIS, we give proportionally as He has blessed and manage the rest in a way the demonstrates His Lordship in our lives as well.

    Did not recall if this has been tossed out for consideration or not.
     

Share This Page

Loading...