Man Is Totally Depraved

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. KenH

    KenH
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    For those who hold to the false notion that man is not totally depraved, not spiritually dead, but instead is just spiritually sick or injured, just stubbed his toe spiritually in the Garden, or that all have been at least touched in some way by the Holy Spirit but have only rejected Him, just read the story below. The people tht committed this act of absolute cruelty and laughed about it have absolutely no light in them, they are darknesss, dark as a dungeon.

    Ken

    This is from www.cnn.com

    Man arrested for burning kitten on grill

    July 17, 2002 Posted: 5:15 AM EDT (0915 GMT))

    LIBERTY, Missouri (AP) -- A man was arrested Tuesday for allegedly burning
    a kitten on a barbecue grill as several other people stood around and
    watched in amusement.

    A witness pulled the scorched, 7-week-old tabby from the hot coals, but it
    was severely injured and had to be put to death, police said.

    "They kept saying, `Meow, meow,' and they were poking at it with a stick,"
    said Sherry Scott, who burned her hand grabbing the kitten.

    Charles C. Benoit, 24, was charged with animal abuse, punishable by up to
    five years in prison and a $5,000 fine. He was jailed on $10,000 bail.

    Jim Roberts, spokesman for the Clay County prosecutor's office, said he
    does not expect anyone else to be charged, because no witnesses could
    identify the others.

    Scott said that on Friday night, she saw 10 or 12 people at the barbecue
    grill in the courtyard of the apartment complex where she lives. Scott said
    she asked what they were cooking, and they said it was a cat. She said the
    group taunted her, daring her to rescue the cat.

    She said the group scattered when she threatened to call police. She said
    she pulled the kitten from where it had been shoved into the coals at the
    back of the grill. Its tail, whiskers, fur, eyes and throat were scorched.

    "I called him Lucky because I thought I got him out of there just in time,"
    she said.

    Scott said she and other residents stayed up Friday night trying to nurse
    the kitten with an eye dropper of milk. But animal control officers decided
    that because of its respiratory injuries and inability to swallow food, it
    had to be destroyed.

    "If you would have seen him, you would have cried," said Sheri Simpson, one
    of the residents who helped care for the kitten.

    [ July 17, 2002, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  2. ScottEmerson

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    And yet many Christians are just fine at the prospect of game hunting, to kill a deer to place its head on the wall as a trophy, with no intent of eating its meat. Would that not be just as inhumane? Is that not cruelty? Is that total depravity? Same could be said for the "sport" of fishing for the purpose of mounting it on the wall.

    Putting a kitten on a grill is small stuff compared to our sins against God that we committed before following Christ.
     
  3. KenH

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    Putting a kitten on a grill is a sin against God, Scott. A kitten is a not a "game" animal.

    Ken
     
  4. KenH

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    By the way, the only thing I have ever shot at is a tin can and it's been about 25 years since I have fished. Hunting and fishing are not my hobbies.

    Ken
     
  5. Primitive Baptist

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    The natural man can't "just believe." Arminians think it's so simple, but it's not. Jesus never taught it. As a matter of fact, He taught quite the opposite!

    "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not." (John 6:36)

    Why didn't they believe? Was it because they just chose not to believe? No!

    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37)

    "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:44, 45)

    It's just not as simple as you'd like it to be.

    "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him." (John 6:64)

    Again, was it because they just chose not to believe? No!

    "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:65)

    That's what the Bible has to say about the subject, and "let God be true, but every man a liar." (Rom. 3:4) I'm tolerant towards the beliefs of others until they cross a certain line, and anybody who would say any differently than what Jesus just said is a liar. I didn't call you a liar; God's word called you a liar.
     
  6. latterrain77

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    Total Depravity begins in the heart of man (Jer. 17: 9, Matt. 15:19, Mark 7:21). It requires the action of GOD, not man, to change this (John 6:44, John 15:16, Mark 13: 20). Mankind is as helpless in this process as Lazarus was to raise himself from the dead - an act that was performed entirely by CHRIST (John 11:43). A man can only "repent," and call upon the name of the Lord (Rom. 10:13), if GOD has already worked it out in advance that he would (Rom. 8:29-30, Eph.1: 4 and entire chapter). So, man's "choice" in the matter (i.e. his calling out to GOD for mercy, his repentance) is actually an "evidence" of that which has already occured as a result of GOD's action - not a result which occurs due to man's choice or action.

    Let's assume the above is correct. Does it matter what we believe about the process? Shouldn't we only be concerned about the end result? (Luke 15:7, 15:10). Or, does the process itself matter? - and if so - why? Is there some evidence of "total depravity" in the concept of insisting on one doctrine over another?

    latterrain77

    [ July 17, 2002, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    I think our interest in Total Depravity is not to illustrate via the newspaper the attrocities that men and women are capable of committing. Our interest, I think, is to understand whether or not a sinner after being convicted by the Holy Spirit of his need of Christ, can then turn to Him with a sincere heart and be heard by God. We well understand that a human being just doesn't say, "Hey, today I am going to receive Christ." On the other hand, as pastors and laypersons we need to know that God is always working in the lives of sinners to bring them to Himself, especially when we pray for particular lost persons.
     
  8. ScottEmerson

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    Putting a kitten on a grill is a sin against God, Scott. A kitten is a not a "game" animal.

    Ken
    </font>[/QUOTE]So where do you see that game animals are okay, but cats are not? What if it's a different culture where cats are hunted, and deer are kept as pets? Is that a sin? (see what I'm getting at?)
     
  9. rlvaughn

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    Ken, the kitten story was interesting, but I think a better illustration of man's depravity is seen in some of the heinous crimes committed in our country by young children who haven't even reached "the age of accountability."
    :(
     
  10. KenH

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    Like I said, I don't hunt, I don't fish. Therefore, I don't feel qualified to talk about hunting "game" animals. Obviously, a deer can be eaten and the head mounted. I don't know if one can eat a fish and mount it.

    Ken
     
  11. ScottEmerson

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    Like I said, I don't hunt, I don't fish. Therefore, I don't feel qualified to talk about hunting "game" animals. Obviously, a deer can be eaten and the head mounted. I don't know if one can eat a fish and mount it.

    Ken
    </font>[/QUOTE]You can't do both. Many people kill deer simply for the head, and discard the meat, especially here in Florida.

    The case follows that such acts are just as "deprived" than the kitty...

    However, as I stated before, no act against animal or even man can begin to compare to our sin and contempt against God before we are saved.
     
  12. KenH

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    Scott, it seems like you are into rating sins. Are you Catholic? Do you think that sins are any less heinous after one is saved than before? Anyway, all sin is against God.

    (Gen 39:9 NKJV) "There is no one greater in this house than I, nor has he kept back anything from me but you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
  13. Primitive Baptist

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    I would like a non-Calvinist to answer my post. It seems when the non-Calvinists get put in a corner, the subject changes.

    God is dealing with every man, huh?

    (I Corinthians 1:26) For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: {27} But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; {28} And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: {29} That no flesh should glory in his presence. {30} But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: {31} That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
     
  14. ScottEmerson

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    How about this question, then. Ever stepped on a cockroach? Ever sprayed for bugs? How is that not cruelty to animals if putting a cat on a grill is?

    I'm just waiting for the SCripture that says that putting a cat on a grill is a sin.
     
  15. ScottEmerson

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    Here's the NIV translation, which phrases things better, I think:

    26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[4][/quote]

    It says not many of you who were called are these things - it doesn't say that not everyone is visited by the Holy Spirit.
     
  16. Primitive Baptist

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    Either translation you use, you still get the same idea. God has chosen some things. If, then, He chose some things, other things weren't chosen. That's pretty simple, huh? Both translations refer to God's choice. Now, why won't you answer my post above about believing????? And I heard somebody mention the "age of accountability?" We're accountable as soon as we're born because if we're not sinners from concpetion Jesus didn't come to save aborted babies because "Jesus Christ came to save sinners." Got it?

    Moderator's note: Keep comments related to Bible versions in their correct forum.

    [ July 18, 2002, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  17. Odemus

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    The sin is not putting the cat on a grill, the sin is deriving pleasure from the torture of the cat.
     
  18. AITB

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    Originally posted by ScottEmerson:

    And yet many Christians are just fine at the prospect of game hunting, to kill a deer to place its head on the wall as a trophy, with no intent of eating its meat. Would that not be just as inhumane? Is that not cruelty? Is that total depravity? Same could be said for the "sport" of fishing for the purpose of mounting it on the wall.


    Scott, maybe you are right that it is very sinful to God that people kill beautiful creatures He created just to put parts of them on their walls. It's very selfish and it's not at all pro-life.

    However, the point with the kitten is that people were evidently gaining amusement and entertainment from watching it suffer.

    That is not why people hunt game. They do not do it because they are entertained by seeing animals in pain. (To my best knowledge)

    So, there is a particular kind of sin in inflicting pain on another creature just because you enjoy watching it in pain - I would say. Which is not the same sin as whatever sin it is to hunt game.

    Putting a kitten on a grill is small stuff compared to our sins against God that we committed before following Christ.

    I don't know how you can know that. Maybe you're right.

    Maybe it's small stuff compared to the sins we still commit :eek:

    AITB
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    Human beings are depraved but not totally. Are you calling humankind Totally Depraved when God's Word and God Himself says that we are created after His likeness? [Genesis 9:6 & James 3:9d] 'O man, who art thou who repliest against God?' [Romans 9:20; your most famous chapter of the Bible].
     
  20. Odemus

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    Most humans are not as evil as they can possibly be, but without Christ we are all as bad off as we can possibly be.Total depravity is not a value on the amount of sin in man, but of his inherent nature.We are by default dead in our sins and thoroughly unable to reconcile ourselves to God apart from His grace.
     

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