Man's Will Trumps God's Will

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Nov 6, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    In the gospel we find Jesus, the Son of God, lamenting the unbelief of the city of Jerusalem. For those who believe in God's universal love for humanity, the scene is most tender and affecting. It is the scene of a Savior heartbroken over the unbelief of His own countrymen.

    We read in Matthew's account,

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

    Here we see the Savior like a mother hen, attempting to bring her uncooperative chicks under the shelter of her wing. But on this pitiful and moving scene the Calvinist comes and throws a bucket of cold water. He tell us that, after all, Jesus never had any real intention of gathering together these folks in the first place! It is all a farce and a sham.

    They tell us that the Lord had willed not to save these people long before they were even conceived in their mother's womb, and before they had done any good or evil.

    But the words of Jesus tell a different story. They tell of a Savior whose light beams out to "every man that cometh into the world." They tell us that the faulty will was not the will of God - for God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. His words tell us it was the will of the creature that spurned the gracious offers of their merciful and faithful creator.

    Let's read His words again:

    "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would Ihave gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

    Mark Osgatharp

    [ November 06, 2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]
     
  2. whatever

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    Mark,

    Where does it say He was weeping?
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

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    Whatever,

    You are correct, it does not say that Jesus was weeping. I repent of my error and have corrected the post.

    Now will you please address the real issue which is that Jesus said "I would" but "ye would not?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. whatever

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    Mark,

    First off, God's will is for man to do works of righteousness, and not sin, so in that sense man thwarts God's will every day.

    Second, I've addressed it before, but to sum it up, the passage does not say "I would have gathered you, but you would not". It says "I would have gathered your children, but you would not". Unless you accept some sort of covenantal salvation framework then Jesus is not speaking of people thwarting God's will for their own salvation. He is speaking of people (the Jewish religious leaders in this case) influencing others away from the gospel.

    This is why I asked about where it says Jesus was weeping as He says what He says. Instead of a rational analysis of what Jesus said you attempt an emotion-based argument against a straw-man version of Calvinism.

    God intended many things in the cross. One of those things that He intended was to command all men everywhere to repent, and He meant it. He really does want all men everywhere to repent. If they would repent then He would forgive their sins and grant them eternal life. But if they don't then their condemnation is just. I am pretty sure we agree on this, so I do not know why you think this makes a case against Calvinism.
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    Mark,

    We all receive the Old and New Testaments as being from the Godhead through his penmen.

    But, I always take notice of the things that Jesus actually said while He was on the earth. To me it is a personal message to me.

    Your explanation as to Jesus concern for, not only the Israelites who were standing in front of Him, but also those who had already died under the former covenant.

    As you have indicated Jesus feelings were intense as His will for their salvation is expressed in the words, 'I would have gathered your children together. . .' It was His sovereign will and desire to save His people along with all sinners, Gentiles included [I Timothy 2:6 & I John 2:2].

    In this same passage of Matthew 23:37 another will is portrayed. It is the human will that has the power to reject Jesus and His love and is expressed in the words, '. . . and ye would not!'

    Did the Lord God overpower their will and rebellion? No. But he did cause the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Thus, the meaning again of Jesus words, 'Your house (the House of Israel) will be left unto you desolate.'

    Thousands were killed by Titus and His armies plus mega thousands fled into neighboring nations, because of the Lord's discipline and punishment because of their rejection of their Messiah.

    I know you understand all this, but I said this for some who's eyes are not yet opened to the truth, or wilfully reject the words of our Savior.

    Also, His heart might have broke to the point where He wept over Jerusalem, the City of David, and King David's Redeemer/Savior.
     
  6. Ray Berrian

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    Whatever,

    If Jesus was not speaking of gathering His people unto salvation, what would He have been gathering them to accomplish?

    We know Jesus Kingdom was not of this world, so He was not calling them to arms and overthrowing the Roman Empire.

    This leads us back to the unquestionable answer.
    Jesus wanted them to receive Him as their Messiah and Lord God of Heaven.

    The whole O.T. is a history of the Jews rebelling against the Lord or backsliding away from Him. Even the N.T. points out this truth in Acts 7:51. What were the Jew resisting in this passage? There resistance to the Lord of all grace is explained to all who will learn of Him. This verse, among multiple other ones point out the theological error of "Irresistable Grace." These Jews as well as their dead fathers under the old covenant had done the same thing. They cast off the Lord.
     
  7. whatever

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    Hi Ray,

    I didn't say that Jesus was not speaking of gathering His people unto salvation. Yes, He wanted them to believe. I said so. Why are we arguing about something that we both affirm?
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

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    Whatever,

    I don't know how anything you said is supposed to answer the problem for Calvinism. Jesus was addressing the city of Jerusalem. Her "children" were the people who lived there. Yes, they had been swayed away from the gospel by their religious leaders.

    The fact remains that Jesus said I would but ye would not. Man's will trumped God's will. I know that will be difficult for you to accept considering your Calvinist presuppositions, but that is what the text says.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  9. whatever

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    Mark,

    I don't know how anything you posted is supposed to be a problem for Calvinism. I already agreed with you that sometimes man's will trumps God's will. Well, I used the word "thwarts", but I meant the same thing you do, I think. So I will ask you what I asked Ray - since we agree, what are we arguing about?
     
  10. Mark Osgatharp

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    Whatever,

    Then you have conceded the whole argument and are no longer a Calvinist, for Calvinism argues that God's will trumps man's will in the matter of salvation (at least that is what they teach until someone calls them on it and rubs their nose in the Bible and then they start trying to explain that will doesn't mean will, blah, blah, etc, etc).

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  11. whatever

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    Mark,

    God wills that all men everywhere repent. Some men refuse to repent and suffer eternal damnation. No one argues that.

    Only for those who are actually saved does God's will 'trump' man's will, by changing a man's will until that man desires what God desires. Those who wind up lost get what they always wanted.

    I still don't see the 'problem'.
     
  12. HanSola2000

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    whatever is not a Calvinist.
     
  13. whetstone

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    Sure he is. you just don't understand what he's saying. Either reread it or stop posting in this thead. It's making you look foolish.

    As for the OP, whatever explained it but it was glossed over- Jesus was speaking of the children- then he says to the leaders 'ye would not.' Sheesh. it's 1st grade grammar. He's talking about 2 different groups. Dave Hunt made this same error in his book and I about spit up my cheerios when I read it. It's no surprise you guys have picked up his heretical interpretation of it and throw proper grammatical study out the window to support your theology.
     
  14. whetstone

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    And might I add that since you believe man's will has trumped God's will- you have made man more powerful than God. what a proud view of yourself you have.
     
  15. Mark Osgatharp

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    Though there is a plain contradiction between these to Calvinists, they will explain to us that though man's will trumps God's will that God' will trumps man's will and that the problem is that we just don't understand and just don't get it. I've heard it a thousand times if I've heard it once.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Mark,

    Your post I WOULD but YE WOULD NOT was and still remains excellent. I could not have said it better or more clearly.

    Sinners and saints will often trumps the will of the Lord. God has restrained His all powerful will in respect to the 'image of God' in His created human beings. To override our decisions would only show that we have not chosen to worship Christ; He has become, according to some, the Chief Inforcer in the lives of all living human beings.

    Is the Lord sovereign? Absolutely in the sense that He is doing all things according to His will and pleasure, without violating His own Divine Attributes within the Godhead.

    The Lord is always more powerful than every human being.

    No Christian can thank himself for believing in Christ, but he or she can feel they have done the right thing by obeying His command to repent and have faith in Jesus.

    Calvinists worry too much about proud Christians. Don't worry the Lord can keep us all humble before Him. He disciplines all who are His own people [Hebrews 12:6]. 'Every son every daughter' in the true faith receives the disciplining of the Lord. Without it people are under the authority of the evil one.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    '. . . the Chief Enforcer . . .'
     
  18. Helen

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    I don't think it is a matter of people's wills 'trumping' God's will, but of God allowing people to have a wills of their own -- in part so they can have the opportunity of becoming Christ-like and at some point proclaiming "Not my will, but Thine, be done."

    God is big enough for us to have wills and for His will to ultimately be done no matter what. He is totally sovereign, not just so as to fit what works in the minds of men, but TOTALLY sovereign.
     
  19. prophecynut

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    Jerusalem is representative of the nation that was offered the kingdom of heaven which they rejected. This offer of the kingdom was for the nation as a whole and not an offer for individual salvation. At Christ's Second Coming Israel's kingdom will be established.

    As the result of their rejection of the kingdom, the city was abandoned by their Messiah as indicated by "your house is left unto you desolate" in verse 35.

    Jesus desired to gather his people into his kingdom but it was not God's will.

    Jesus desires all to come to repentance but it is not God's will.

    All along God has held out his hands to an disobedient and obstinate people (Isa. 65:2; Romans 10:21) but it was not God's will for them to acknowledge him, instead he "gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear to this very day" (11:8).

    Desire expresses intent, God's will determines the outcome.
     
  20. Helen

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    Jesus desires all to come to repentance but it is not God's will.

    Are you saying Jesus is not God?
     

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