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Discussion in 'Politics' started by KenH, Feb 19, 2006.
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Actually, our first loyalty is to the people of the United States. The Constitution has been changed (and correctly so in some cases) many times throughout our nation's history. But, the people are what remain. The Constitution is a great document, but it isn't what makes this country what it is...that credit goes to the people.
Our first priority should be to the security and protection of the people of the United States. If there is someone in the United States talking on a phone to a terrorist organization overseas, the president not only has the right to wiretap them and get information that might save lives, he has the obligation to do so, and if he didn't do it and we had another 9-11 as a result, you would likewise be calling for his head for not doing everything in his power to protect this nation and it's people.
Freedom is a great thing. But, it is meaningless if everyone is dead. Security is a greater thing.
"The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home." - James Madison
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin
Madison was wrong in his isolationist ideology. Listening to phone calls between Americans and terrorists is not infringing on essential liberty. That is silly.
"Whoever wishes peace among peoples must fight statism." - Ludwig Von Mises
"No nation could preserve freedom in the midst of continual war." - James Madison
Joseph, you know as well as I do and as well as everyone else who posts on this board, that if Hillary Clinton was the president that the conservatives that have no problem with President Bush on this issue would be howling, "Police State!!!!".
And they would be wrong to do so. I will not participate in that kind of dangerous rhetoric for political gain during a time of war and when the lives of my family (wife and son) are on the line.
I agree with you, Joseph. Imagine that.
Me also Joseph.
Joseph, you know as well as I do and as well as everyone else who posts on this board, that if Hillary Clinton was the president that the conservatives that have no problem with President Bush on this issue would be howling, "Police State!!!!". </font>[/QUOTE]For a glimpse of how actual conservatives quite recently used to think, one should read this article at FreeRepublic.com, which decries the dangerous loss of liberty and privacy as a result of the Clinton Administration's use of a "secret court" (something called the "FISA court") which actually enables the Federal Government to eavesdrop on American citizens! Worse -- much worse -- the judicial approval which the Government (used to) obtain for this eavesdropping is in secret, so we don't even know who is being eavesdropped on! How can we possibly trust the Government not to abuse this power if they can obtain warrants in secret?
Conservatives used to consider things like this to be quite disturbing and bad -- and the eavesdropping then was at least with judicial oversight. Now, George Bush is in office, and all of the distrust we used to have of the Federal Government exercising these powers has evaporated, because we trust in George Bush to do what is best for us.
I don't think I have heard anyone complaing about the government listening to phone calls between Americans and terrorists. The problems are when the government ignores it's own laws to do so and doesn't bother to get the warrant required, even after the fact. And the questions about who else is being monitored by the federal government, who may not have ties to the terrorists.
Keep in mind the Islamic extremists will not always be the terrorist in this "war on terror", Bush has created a monster that will never die, one day the "terrorist" will be the Christians and the government, maybe even the Antichrist, will be able to use Bush's system to find and persecute the Christians.
Yeah, but but but we're all so scared of the unseen enemies our great incompetent leaders and their friends in the corporate media keep telling us about now Mr. Grubbs. Thank God our fore fathers weren't such wimps as to give up on liberty so easily.
Ken, your response to arguments is to trot out some one-sentence quotes?
As to the quote from Franklin, I have given up NO liberty except to talk on my cell phone to al Qaeda terrorists. Terrorist plots are broken up all the time, and if intercepting telephone calls to terrorists with or without a warrant helps to do that, then do it more. And I do not concede that it is unconstitutional as a wartime power of the President. Unless you deny that we are at war with al Qaeda. They've declared war on us whether we've declared it back or not. BTW, Ken, that "safety" you ridicule through Ben Franklin's pen is, as JB said, the federal government's first job.
You also have forgotten that when conservatives bemoaned President Clinton's use of FISA, they were doing so with a President who had a track record of using government power to check on his political enemies. Remember Filegate? Yes, I'll be suspicious of Hillary Clinton with such power, but she should be supported for using it as long as she uses it as President Bush has.