Mark 13:30

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by tommie, Jun 21, 2006.

  1. tommie

    tommie
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    Could you explain what "this present generation" means? I think generation means 'a people' or 'christians from this time forward' but would love your input. Thank you.
     
    #1 tommie, Jun 21, 2006
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  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here is the word from Strong's:

    G1074
    γενεά
    genea
    ghen-eh-ah'
    From (a presumed derivative of) G1085; a generation;
    by implication an age (the period or the persons): - age,
    generation, nation, time.



    here is a word study on 'age' from the New King James Version (nKJV).

    an asterick (*) starting a sentence is a statement
    of truth , truth restated from the scripture
    ------------------------------------------------
    "AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).

    The KJV tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
    Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calles them both "world".
    So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
    References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.


    Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
    Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
    it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
    it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

    Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
    The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
    is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

    *souls shall be harvested at the end of this age

    Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
    Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
    so it will be at the end of this age.

    Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
    So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
    forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

    Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
    Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
    to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
    And what will be the sign of Your coming,
    and of the end of the age?"

    Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
    teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
    and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

    *Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
    *the age has an end

    Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
    who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
    and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
    with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.

    *people will have eternal life, in the age to come

    Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
    who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
    and in the age to come eternal life."

    Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
    34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
    and are given in marriage.
    35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
    and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

    *there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead

    1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
    Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
    of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    *this age has a disputer

    1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
    However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
    yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
    who are coming to nothing.

    *the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
    *the rules of this age will come to nothing

    1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
    which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
    they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
    Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
    to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

    2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
    whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
    lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
    who is the image of God, should shine on them.

    *the god of this age is NOT Jesus, the Christ

    Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
    who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
    us from this present evil age, according to the will
    of our God and Father,

    *this age is evil

    Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
    far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
    and every name that is named, not only in this age
    but also in that which is to come.

    *there is an age to follow this age

    Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
    For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
    against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
    against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

    * this age is dark

    1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
    Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
    nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
    us richly all things to enjoy.

    * this age has rich people in it

    Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
    teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
    we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

    Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
    and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

    *This great section on the Security of the Believer
    speaks of an "age to come".
    * there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.

    AGES in the KJV1769:

    Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
    That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
    of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    **There will be ages after this age.

    Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
    Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
    as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
    Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
    world without end. Amen.

    Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
    Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
    and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    *There were ages before this age.
    *ages are similiar to generations

    -------------------------------------------------
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Ed;
    I think I got it. :)
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    To actually answer your question, it means the generation to which Jesus was speaking. Judgment was coming upon that generation of Jews:

    Mat 23:30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    Mat 23:31 Therefore you are witnesses to yourselves, that you are the sons of those who killed the prophets;
    Mat 23:32 and you fill up the measure of your fathers.
    Mat 23:33 Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
    Mat 23:34 Therefore, behold, I send prophets and wise men and scribes to you. And you will kill and crucify some of them. And some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city;
    Mat 23:35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berachiah, whom you killed between the temple and the altar.
    Mat 23:36 Truly I say to you, All these things shall come on this generation.
     
  5. tommie

    tommie
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    So Ed is saying that generation means "Time" and Grasshopper says that it mean the Jews of that day. If it meant the Jews of that day, I don't understand the verses before this scripture saying that the sun shall be dark and the stars of heaven shall be shaken and they shall see the Son of man coming... This did not come to pass before that generation past away. Help me in my misunderstanding. Thanks!
     
  6. Joseph M. Smith

    Joseph M. Smith
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    Missionary-theologian-philosopher-organist-physician Albert Schweitzer thought it meant exactly what it said, that Jesus thought the end would come in the lifetime of those hearing him. So, says Schweitzer, when it appeared that the end was not coming, Jesus threw himself on the wheel of history to urge it forward, and when it turned, it crushed him!

    Not my view or that of the Jesus who, in the Fourth Gospel, says that no one takes his life from him, but that he freely gives it. But is it possible that within the human side of the Incarnation there was a supposition about the end times that simply did not come true?
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    Mar 13:25 and the stars of Heaven shall fall, and the powers in the heavens shall be shaken.

    When I learned that this type of language was never meant to be taken literally is when my eschatology began to change.

    John Lightfoot (1859)
    "That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deut. 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.' Jer. 4:23; 'I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light,' &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isa. 65:17; 'Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,' &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Cor. 5:17, &c. (vol. 2, pp. 18-19)

    Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
    "The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

    So when you understand how the OT uses this type of language it becomes clear as to the meaning in the NT.

    Read Is. 13, it speaks of the destruction on Babylon by the Medes. Notice how this event is described:

    Isa 13:10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not give light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not reflect its light.

    Notice how the jugment on Edom is described:

    Isa 34:4 And all the host of the heavens shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled like a scroll; and all their host shall droop, as a leaf falls off from the vine, and as the falling from the fig tree.
    Isa 34:5 For My sword bathed in the heavens. Behold, it shall come down on Edom, and on the people of My curse for judgment.

    Many more examples found in the OT using this type of language. So the question becomes in my view, why do we insist on a literal interpretation in the NT when it is clearly not literal in the OT?

    Do a search for "this generation" in scripture and see what you come up with.
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    tommie: //I don't understand the verses before this scripture saying that the sun shall be dark and the stars of heaven shall be shaken and they shall see the Son of man coming... This did not come to pass before that generation past away.//


    From the KJV1611 Edition:
    Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Hierusalem Iewes, deuout men, out of euery nation vnder heauen.
    Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that euery man heard them speake in his owne language.
    Act 2:7 And they were all amazed, and marueiled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speake, Galileans?
    Act 2:8 And how heare we euery man in our owne tongue, wherein we were borne?
    ...
    Act 2:14 But Peter standing vp with the eleuen, lift vp his voyce, and said vnto them, Ye men of Iudea, & all ye that dwell at Hierusalem, be this knowen vnto you, and hearken to my words:
    Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third houre of the day.
    Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the Prophet Ioel,
    Act 2:17 And it shall come to passe in the last dayes (saith God) I will powre out of my Spirit vpon all flesh: and your sonnes and your daughters shall prophesie, and your yong men shall see visions, and your old men shall dreame dreames:
    Act 2:18 And on my seruants, and on my handmaidens, I will powre out in those daies of my Spirit, and they shall prophesie:
    Act 2:19 And I wil shew wonders in heauen aboue, and signes in the earth beneath: blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke.
    Act 2:20 The Sunne shall be turned into darkenesse, and the Moone into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come.

    Act 2:21 And it shall come to passe, that whosoeuer shall call on the Name of the Lord, shalbe saued.

    Your signs came to pass on the day of Pentacost 33AD*

    (* some say 30AD)
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Why did he believe this? Because Jesus and the NT writers taught it. Schweitzer like many today misunderstood eschatology.
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    It is talking about the generation of Jesus Christ which is from Christ until the end.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Brother Bob -- Preach it! :thumbs:


    John Lightfoot and Sir Isaac Newton never lived after 1964
    when mankind had enough nuclear weapons to errase all
    forms of life (minority report: human life only) from the face of
    the earth. After 1964 it began to look like the Second Coming
    of Jesus would be to SAVE MANKIND FROM DESTROYING
    HIMSELF.

    Mat 24:21-22 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was
    not since the beginning of the world to this time, no,
    nor euer shall be
    .
    22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
    there should no flesh be saued
    : but for the elects sake,
    those dayes shall be shortned.
     
    #11 Ed Edwards, Jun 21, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2006
  12. Brother Bob

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    Thanks Ed:
    I thought you deserved my 2000 post. :)
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Thanks Brother Brother Bob. And congrads on your 2K mark.

    umm, how close am i to 10K???:Fish:
     
  14. Rex77

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    Mr 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, [even] at the doors.
    Mr 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

    The generation that sees those signs, they will not pass away till all be fulfilled.
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    Hogwash. How in the world do you get a generation to mean 2000 years? Absurd. But this is the twisting of scripture that must occur in order to justify Dispensationalism.




    You are partly right. “this generation” refers to the people Jesus was speaking to, and you are correct, that generation did see those signs take place. That is why Peter was able to proclaim the end was near:

    1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things has drawn near. Therefore be of sound mind, and be sensible to prayers.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Yes, Brother Ed, you sure do do the dispensational
    twist with your Strong's Greek dictionary entry :smilewinkgrin:

    Can an 'age' be 2,000 years? Yes
    Can an 'nation' last 2,000 years? Yisriel has
    Can a 'time' last 2,000 years? The TIME OF CHRIST
    (also known as: AD) has

    Yes, Brother Ed, you sure do do the dispensational
    twist with your Strong's Greek dictionary entry :Fish:
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Thanks again Brother Ed;
    One thing I learned from him, he has started washing hogs now. :) I will let you answer stand for me.
     
  18. J. Jump

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    That generation did not see those things come to pass because the stars of Heaven did not fall and the powers in the heavens have not been shaken.

    Satan is still currently ruling from the heavens and will not be removed until Christ comes in His glory to set up His kingdom. This event is a future event and deals with the seven-year tribulational period in which God will finish dealing with Israel and finish off Daniel's 70th week.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    KJMatt.01

    "1": The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    See my response #7.

    God told us when the Kingdom would come in Daniel 2. John the Baptist confirms it for us:


    Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

    Or is this another failed prophecy?



    Where does the Bible teach a 7 year tribulation and why do you put a gap in Daniel’s 70 weeks?


    Of course if He wished to indicate an age, he would have. There is a greek word that actually means “age.” Jesus actually used that word when He wanted to indicate an age: aiōn.

    Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'

    Of course Ed would have you believe it means the same as this:

    Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the generation?'

    Just use common sense and come to your own conclusion.

    So Ed, using your unique interpretative skills tell me what this means:

    Mat 23:35 that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar:
    Mat 23:36 verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
     

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