Mark of the beast

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Deborah B., Oct 14, 2004.

  1. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
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    With the announcement yesterday about the FDA approval of VeriChip, the medically implantable microchip, I questioned whether this could be considered the mark of the beast stated in Rev. 13:16, Rev. 14:8, and Rev. 20:4. Someone came back and said that you can't take these verses literally and if you did take them literally that the Bible states that the mark would be "ON" the forehead, meansing visible to the naked eye. Soooooo, I whip out the old KJV and lo and behold it has "IN" the forehead and "IN" the hand.

    Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive, a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

    Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    My HCSB has "ON" their forehead and "ON" their hands. Which is the correct translation?????

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  2. Johnv

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    This is the third thread on the topic. The Moderators tend to frown upon cross-posting and multiple topics. I suggest we defer our comments and posts to the other threads already in existence on the topic.
     
  3. Deborah B.

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    I have a translation question. I do NOT intend to discuss the VeriChip itself as discussed on the other board, thank you very much. You just sparked a question with me on what the correct translation is, whether it should be "on" or "in". Is that okay with you John? You stated it could not be an implant because the Bible said "ON", that is if I took Revalation literally. But I'm not here to debate about the chip. I am simply trying to clear up a word that is different in my two bible versions.

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  4. Ziggy

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    I covered this matter specifically in another thread, even to my own chagrin when attempting to back-translate the KJV into Greek and coming up with the wrong word before I had opportunity to actually look it up.

    For everyone's enlightenment: the Greek underlying word found in *every* Greek MS at this point is EPI, which means "upon". End of story, except for those who might appeal to some sort of "advanced revelation" in a particular English rendering.
     
  5. robycop3

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    In the 'old days', some considered this mark to be a tattoo, which is 'in' the skin. Given that the tech now exists for an electronic 'mark' I'll go with 'in'.
     
  6. natters

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    Just don't accept anything either "on" nor "in" your hand or forehead, and you're good. [​IMG]
     
  7. Dogsbody

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    Hello,
    As the book of Revelation is full of symbolism “in which are some things hard to be understood” we must be careful to take it all so literally. Lets look at the verses symbolically.

    Rev 13:16 “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive, a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:”

    The beast has great power to cause all in this verse to “do” what he wants(“in their right hand”) and even “think/believe (“in their foreheads”).


    Rev 14:9 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,”

    They follow the beast and “think/believe” his way and “do” his will.


    Rev 20:4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

    The followers of the Lord in this passage did not accept the “thinking” of antichrist nor “do” his will, but believe on the Lord.


    The Lord Jesus Christ said in John 6:63 “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit,”

    John 3:18 “ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already…”

    We will be judged for not believing or justified by faith; not tattoos, credit cards(thank the Lord!) or chip implants. "in" seems to fit better than "on" since the important thing is faith.

    Take care. [​IMG]
     
  8. James_Newman

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    Just don't accept the KJV got it right 400 years ago and your theory that there is no perfect word of God is still good.
     
  9. James_Newman

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    Revelation is full of symbolism, but it interprets the symbols for us. The mark is not symbolic, it is a literal mark that every man must have in order to buy or sell.
     
  10. Dogsbody

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    "Revelation interprets itself for us, thank you for playing."

    Whaaat? I thought I interpreted scripture with scripture? Did I do something wrong? Sorry, I'm new here.
    Take care all.
     
  11. natters

    natters
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    James said "Just don't accept the KJV got it right 400 years ago"

    The Greek word is a general preposition "epi". The KJV translated it as "on" most of the time, also as "in", "upon", "unto", "to", "by", "at", "over", "for", etc, etc, etc.

    For as it is a fault of incredulity, to doubt of those things that are evident: so to determine of such things as the Spirit of God hath left (even in the judgment of the judicious) questionable, can be no less than presumption.

    They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other.

    Maybe "on" is correct, maybe "in" is correct. Either way, I'm not accepting anything "on" nor "in" my hand or forehead. [​IMG]

    James said "and your theory that there is no perfect word of God is still good."

    That is not my theory. Do you still not understand the view you try to oppose?
     
  12. natters

    natters
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    Don't go, Dogsbody. That's the nature of discussion boards. There's more opinions than participants, and a wide range of personalities. Put on a thick skin, and jump on in. [​IMG]
     
  13. James_Newman

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    Sorry DB, I was i little agitated here at work, didn't mean to get snippy. Forgive me :( . I editted my post too late I guess.
     
  14. Johnv

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    Deborah, the Greek word is "epi", which contextually means "upon" or "onto" In the 1600's, the word "in" could also carry the same context as "upon" (for example, the Lord's prayer reads "in earth as it is in heaven").

    In today's language, the word "in" refers to "inside" and has lost the former context of "upon". The correct context of the verse in today's language is "on" or "upon".

    Those who assert that the KJV means "inside" or "within" are incorrect. If this is the assertion as some KJVO's insist, then it must also be concluded that the KJV translators changed scripture.
     
  15. Deborah B.

    Deborah B.
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    _________________________________________________

    I agree 100%. In fact, this board really pushes me to the limit to work on patience with others with different opinions. The first time I got mad here I wanted to run away, but I have since looked at it a different way and it is teaching me "anger control". hehehe [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Deborah
     
  16. James_Newman

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    OK, I understand you believe in a perfect word of God, but not one that I can read. That is fair? If in and on can be encompassed in one word in greek, great. What word would that be in english? Why is it 'in' in the KJV and 'on' in almost every other english bible?
     
  17. natters

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    James said "OK, I understand you believe in a perfect word of God, but not one that I can read. That is fair?"

    No. I read some just this morning, in both the KJV and the NASB. "Perfect" textually is not necessary for the "perfect" word of God, because God's word is the correct interpretation of a text. One could have a textually "perfect" Bible and have a wrong interpretation, and thus would not really get God's word after all.

    James said "Why is it in 'in' in the KJV and 'on' in almost every other english bible?"

    Because it is not always clear how to translate such general prepositions. They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other.
     
  18. Ziggy

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    JohnV: "(for example, the Lord's prayer reads "in earth as it is in heaven")."

    Except here you have *both* words, with their respective distinctions:

    WS EN OURANW KAI EPI THS GHS
    As IN heaven and UPON the earth
     
  19. Dogsbody

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    Oh, I didn’t go, I’m just real slow at computer stuff. I’m trying to figure out this posting stuff. I like to sign post with “take care all”.

    Natters,
    Good stuff to learn! That is why I states “in” “seems” better to me as it fits what we believe and we “do” according to what we believe.

    James N., Forgiven! If we do not fit the belief system of Antichrist, we won’t be able to buy or sell. Kind of like “No shoes, no shirt, no service.” I learned “Find/Seek the literal sense unless it makes no sense or all becomes nonsense.” And I agree with you that Revelation interprets itself in some passages such as Rev. 1:20 and 4:5, too many others to list, but in a few we need to study the whole council of God. And no offence to you, but I believe we will be judged according to faith, not a work such as taking or not taking a micro chip.

    I was attempting to explain why “in” seems to make sense to me.

    Rev. 1:1 “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to past; and sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:”

    Oh, I do type slow!
    Take care all.
     
  20. RaptureReady

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    Why the KJB of course. [​IMG]

    I don't believe that it will be on your body because it would be too easy to take off. In the body is a better reading.

    BTW, Deborah, in another topic you mentioned how the HCSB is better than the KJB in that the reading is much easier. Question, when reading the KJB, did you use a dictionary, commentaries, and maybe other material to help you understand? As ou can see here, the two versions say differently. I feel sorry for those who only read the HLCB and not knowing that this "On" should be "in."

    God bless,
    RR
     

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