Martha & Mary_Christ loved them both

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Nov 13, 2009.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,556
    Likes Received:
    273
    Martha = His children who believe in Free Will.

    Mary = His children who believe in Sovereign Grace.

    And she had a sister called Mary, who also sat at the Lord`s feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving; and she came up to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister did leave me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. But the Lord answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art anxious and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: for Mary hath chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her. Lu 10:39-42
     
  2. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen! Tell that to freaks like Marc Carpenter.
     
  3. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    7,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    You get the conclusion in the OP from this?

    How?

    Now if you had said works vs faith there might have been a discussion, but you need more support than this particular passage for any freewill/sovereign grace comparision.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,556
    Likes Received:
    273
    I like the freewill/sovereign grace comparision. :)

    It fits.
     
  5. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,835
    Likes Received:
    115
    Martha - "Hard works make me worthy."

    Mary - "I am completely unworthy."

    I suppose that at different times of my life, I've been both women.

    Right now - it's Martha.


    She was a hard worker. I'm a hard worker.

    She needed help and wasn't getting it. I need help and sometimes don't get it.

    She griped and complained. That's me sometimes, too.

    And when she complained to Jesus, He didn't tell her that her hard work was not the right thing to do. He didn't want her to forgo the details of life. Details are VERY important. Someone has to open the doors of the church and lock them back. Someone has to balance the family checkbook. Someone has to clean the toilets. Someone has to feed the animals. Someone has to serve on the nominating committee. If the details of our lives go undone, disaster occurs.

    But Jesus very clearly outlined where her fault lay. And I guess the reason I relate to her, is my fault lies in the same place.

    He told her three things. (1) That she was worried and distracted by the details. The details of her life had taken her eyes off of Jesus. (2) That there was really only one thing that she should be concerned about. (3) And that her sister has something BETTER and that He was not going to take it away from her.

    I'm sort of a Martha sometimes, when I should be more of a Mary.
    __________________
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,556
    Likes Received:
    273
    Excellent! Thank you!
     
  7. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since faith is not a work in either camp, your analogy fails. "Free will" doesn't hold to works salvation.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,835
    Likes Received:
    115
    Er...thank you.

    I wasn't agreeing with you, however. I wasn't talking about salvation. The story of Martha and Mary isn't about salvation.

    I guess I was off the topic. I do that alot. Sorry.
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,556
    Likes Received:
    273
    I didn't think that you were agreeing with me but I most definitely agree with you that the story of Martha and Mary isn't about salvation, and I liked your view that there's both Martha and Mary within you. I have more I want to write on this but I've got to do some chores right now.

    FYI, I posted the OP with a wee bit of tongue in cheek. But, from my sovereign grace viewpoint I do see some similarities with Martha & Mary and this age old schism within the church.
     
  10. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    This passage is about service and bearing fruit, not salvation. Both Martha and Mary were saved as shown in John chapter 11. Mary and Martha were the sisters of Lazarus who was raised from the dead.

    John 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

    As you can see, Jesus loved Martha, she was saved.

    Luke 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
    39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
    40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
    41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
    42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.


    Martha was not unsaved, she is the one who invited Jesus into her house. But Mary was more spiritual, she attended upon spiritual matters more than Martha. Martha, like those shown in the parable of the sower allowed the cares of the world to take her away from the more important word of God.

    Mark 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
    19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
    20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


    Unlike many others, I believe only the seed sown by the wayside are the unsaved in the parable of the sower. It did not take root or spring up into life whatsoever. But both the seed sown on rocky ground, and the seed sown among thorns did take root and spring into life. However, the rocky ground has no root and falls away due to persecution, and the seed sown among thorns gets choked by the cares and distractions of the world. Both are saved, but do not bear fruit. This was Martha. She was a believer, but she allowed herself to be carried away and distracted by the cares and troubles of the world.

    But the good ground are those that not only hear the word, but continue in it and bear much fruit. This is Mary. Mary knew that to hear God's word and serve the Lord was more important than the physical world we live in. She was a true disciple.

    So, this story is about service, not salvation.

    And notice that Jesus says the good part given to Mary shall not be taken away. This refers to God's word. Jesus told us to take careful heed of what we hear. To those that hear his word and attend to it, to those more shall be given. But to those who do not listen, even that which was given them shall be taken away.

    Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
    25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.
     
    #10 Winman, Nov 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2009
  11. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O.
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,835
    Likes Received:
    115
    Ahhhh....OK. :thumbs:
     
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,556
    Likes Received:
    273
    The point of the OP (which I think AresMan got) is that Christ has His sheep on both sides of the fence in the Free Will/Sovereign Grace schism and He loves them all. It's been my experience in my personal life, and I'm painting with a very broad brush here, that Free Willers are less agreeable to that statement than the Calvinists are and more prone to criticize or condemn as Martha did her sister. In their view, the mission of the church is to populate heaven, and if it fails in it's mission folks will go to hell. Thus, as Martha, they're anxious about many things to get the work of the Lord done and get people saved. Calvinists tend to view the church as a 'sheep feeding' institution instead of a 'sheep making' one, and as Mary, sit at the Lord's feet and hear his word.

    As I said, I've painted with a very broad brush and my intent was not to antagonize.

    Winman, thanks for your comments. Just curious, how do you see Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus as service?
     
    #12 kyredneck, Nov 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2009
  13. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Huh? Where do you get that from?
     
  14. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    It speaks of discipleship. There are many folks who trust on Christ, anyone who has gone to church for years can make this observation. Some get saved, and serve gladly for a few months, but then one day they quit coming and you never see them again. These are those that fall away because of persecution or are drawn away by the cares of the world. They are saved, just not fruitful.

    Others are more faithful. They come and serve year after year, they are there every time the doors are opened. They do all they can to help the church grow and lead people to the Lord.

    And you will find it very true that those who are most faithful spend time in the word of God. If you read the word of God everyday it is going to keep you on the straight and narrow. When you get away from the word, pretty soon you will fall away from service.

    My pastor once said that the argument that you don't have to attend church or read the Bible regularly to be a good Christian was ridiculous. He asked,

    "Do you have to spend time on the golf course to be a great golfer?"

    And he was right.
     
    #14 Winman, Nov 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2009
  15. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think people read way too much into this account. Martha was busy and doing stuff to serve Christ and was anxious about it, and so was missing time she could have spent sitting by Jesus and learning from him. That's it. It's not a parable or some kind of super spiritual lesson. It's a narrative. Jesus makes a comment that is quite clear and is not some kind of heavy message.

    There is nothing here about works vs. grace, or even that we should always be Mary and not Martha. Martha was fine except she was getting carried away with the tasks she was performing.
     
  16. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know if I agree with you here, I believe all scripture is important.

    You know, I've never enjoyed reading those long geneologies and wondered why this is important to know. But there are scholars, historians, and archeologists who study these accounts, and verify them through historical writings and archeological finds. So they are very important.
     
  17. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,556
    Likes Received:
    273
    Discipleship = trust in the Lord = sitting at the Lord's feet and hearing his word. That has merit, IMO. I prefer 'sitting at the Lord's feet and hearing his word' = repose or refuge in the Lord, which of it's own necessitates trust. You make an excellent point. I also agree with you that all those in the parable of the sower are God's children.

    In your opinion, what's the lesson to be learned in Martha being cumbered with much serving and anxious and troubled about many things? How is Martha to be contrasted with Mary? Is the Lord implying that Martha should cease her activities and sit and listen to Him as Mary is?
     
    #17 kyredneck, Nov 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2009
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,556
    Likes Received:
    273
    Thanks for commenting Marcia.

    Do you think we're wrong for trying to derive a lesson from it, which may or may not be allegorical? I don't see any harm being done here.

    I agree with Winman, all the scripture is important. I don't think there's an idle word in the Bible.

    I'll ask you the same question that I did Winman. Is the Lord implying that Martha should cease her activities and sit and listen to Him as Mary is?
     
    #18 kyredneck, Nov 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2009
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    This might sound silly, but something that came to my mind while I was thinking about this passage is that when I was younger (in age and spiritual maturity), I was much more concerned with "stuff" than sitting at Jesus' feet. As I grow older and more spiritually mature, I find myself wanting to sit at Jesus' feet more and more and the "busy-ness of life" just doesn't seem so important.

    Does that make any sense? :)
     
  20. Jeep Dragon

    Jeep Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2006
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    We do not necessarily have to generalize Martha in this account as "the typical Christian doing the Lord's work."

    Martha was most likely cleaning, cooking, and decorating the house for the guests who were to come to see Lazarus and Jesus after Lazarus was raised from the dead. Martha probably wanted to make their stay more hospitable. She wasn't busy "winning souls" in this context, but she was asking Jesus to ask Mary to leave him to help her set table, hang doilies, or watch some of the food, because too many things were happening at one time with not much time left before the guests arrived.

    There was nothing wrong with Martha's request, but Mary was enjoying herself with the one who raised Lazarus from the dead. Martha may have planned more than she bargained for and ended up needing to ask for help to finished what she started.

    But, when many important religious leaders are coming to your house, don't you want to make sure that the house looks great and the meal is fantastic to what they usually eat? It would be shameful if they came and saw a cluttered house and only had stale popcorn to munch on. Martha was taking the situation into the same logic that we would do if we were in her situation.
     

Share This Page

Loading...