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Mary, mother of God

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by TP, Dec 28, 2004.

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  1. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Don't YOU understand that by giving Mary the title, Mother of God, that you diminish the Almighty and add to scripture?

    Now you're being silly and wasting our time. Certainly they taught you the basics in Normal Catholic Seminary.

    Jesus was fully God and fully man. Mary was the earthly mother of the fully man, Jesus. Mary's DNA is not part of the Godhead.

    Luke 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" 35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

    Mt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

    Your arguments here make about as much sense as 'if a tree falls in the forest'.
     
    #41 dianetavegia, Dec 29, 2004
  2. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    John, calling Mary the mother of God is the first step in deifing her. Then, since she is the mother of God, God is more likely to listen to her. Calling her holy, queen of heaven, mother of mercy, they all follow. Since God never asks us to pray through her, or address her in prayer, or call her God's mother, why do any of it ?
     
    #42 Bro. Curtis, Dec 29, 2004
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    In and of itself, it is not deifying her, so long as one understands that she is mother of God the Son.

    One could just as easily say that if she is the mother of Jesus, that Jesus is more likely to liten to her. But few of us here, if any, have believed that just because we call her the mother of Jesus.

    Not if one recognizes that she's the mother of God the Son, but not mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. I think your assumption is coming from a romophobic point of view.
    I never said we should pray to her or address her in prayer. But she is mother of God the Son. We cannot deny that. Nor should we just because some might not be able to discern between the individual persons in the Trinity.
     
    #43 Johnv, Dec 29, 2004
  4. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann Member

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    Mary is the mother of Jesus; God the Father has no mother.

    I also find it disturbing that there is a strong movement in the Catholic Church to declare Mary to be "Co-Redeemer" with Christ. Even though it has not yet been officially defined as doctrine, I believe it will come.
     
    #44 Priscilla Ann, Dec 29, 2004
  5. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    I think that part of the problem here stems from a conflation of and a confusion between the concepts of 'mother' and 'creator'.

    My wife has just given birth to our first child, a son. However, she did not create him, God did; she bore him in her womb and ultimately delivered him. She is the boy's mother; that's what mother's do. Similarly, God the Son was not created by Mary; in His case He was never created. But she did bear Him in the womb and give birth to Him. So, she is His mother.

    I think the fear of referring to Mary as 'Mother of God' is to do with thinking that that means she somehow 'created' God and hence is somehow divine. I hope I have demonstrated that mothers do not 'create' their children. To say that she is not Mother of God is quite simply to deny the Divine Nature of Jesus and to slip into the Nestorian heresy.

    One more point: the title of Mary does not mean we have to address her as such! In fact, I do not address her at all as she plays no part whatsoever in my devotional and prayer life. It's rather sad that the title Theotokos, which was meant to be a Christological statement, became a form of address for Mary and to Mary and thus fuelled the slide into Mariolatry in later centuries.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #45 Matt Black, Dec 29, 2004
  6. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    This prayer is often repeated 150 times grouped in tens. A rosary is generally used to "count" the number of times the prayer is attempted. Hence it is often called rosary or rosary prayer. The custom of saying this prayer 150 times is believed to have been originated towards the end of the 16th century. During these prayers, the mysteries of the life, death and resurrection were remembered.

     
    #46 dianetavegia, Dec 29, 2004
  7. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony New Member

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    Isaiah tells us "...unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given..." The miracle child of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary.....the eternal Son given by the Father unto a lost and dying world. The eternal Christ took on flesh and dwelt among us, Mary was the chosen vessel of God. She is not the Mother of God, but the earthy mother of Jesus the Christ.

    Matthew tells us that Jesus had brothers and sisters, (not cousins)--so Mary was not a perpetual virgin except in the minds of those who choose to ignore the clear teaching of the Scripture because it does not fit their ever changing theology.

    Finally, Jesus is the only sinless one. Mary sinned if that were not so she could have died for our sin and there would be no need for Jesus.

    This parsing words to make Catholic theology seemed legitamate is clever, but falls short. I expect all the standard replies, but there is no need, because they come from a theological system based in church tradition rather than the Bible.

    Bro Tony
     
    #47 Bro Tony, Dec 29, 2004
  8. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: Don't YOU understand that by giving Mary the title, Mother of God, that you diminish the Almighty and add to scripture?

    Response: This is Title is given To Glorify God. To deny this title is to deny the Divinity of Christ. To accept this Title is to admit that Jesus is God. The Title is NOT for Mary, it is to Define who Jesus is. To deny the title is to deny the divinity of Christ: That attacks both the Almighty AND scripture.

    You said: Now you're being silly and wasting our time.

    Response: So pursuing the truth is a waste of time?

    You said: Jesus was fully God and fully man. Mary was the earthly mother of the fully man, Jesus.

    Response: First of all, Again, a trinity Lesson. Jesus had Human Nature and Divine Nature, but was ONE divine person. Mary give birth to the Divine Person, the Son. The Divine person of the Son passed through Her womb. You are falling into the nestorian way of thinking: Mary gave birth to something human, but the divine did NOT pass through her womb. That is wrong. The divine Son dwelt within her, and she gave birth to him.

    You said: Mary's DNA is not part of the Godhead.

    Response: WE believe in the Bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. His glorified Human body is now in heaven. His glorified Human body is NOW part of the Godhead. So I guess if you believe in the Resurrection then Mary's DNA(glorified as it is in Jesus) is part of the God head. I AM NOT SAYING MARY IS PART OF THE GODHEAD, BUT THAT THE GLORIFIED RISEN BODY OF CHRIST IS.

    Peace
     
    #48 TP, Dec 29, 2004
  9. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    Here is a link to the a Lutheran Perspective on the Mother of God discussion. I think the author was originally ELCA, but has recently become LCMS. Lutherans are definitely NOT catholic. here is the link:

    http://www.higherthings.org/imgs/content/Mary.pdf
     
    #49 TP, Dec 29, 2004
  10. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Who cares what they think. If they call Mary the mother of God, they're just as wrong as you.
     
    #50 Bro. Curtis, Dec 29, 2004
  11. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: Who cares what they think. If they call Mary the mother of God, they're just as wrong as you.

    Response: Without even reading the article, they must automatically be wrong because you do not want to believe it. Rather than refuting the arguements in the article or even engaging in discussion, you just assume you are right, they are wrong: Not even allowing for the possibility of your error. Arrogance?

    peace
     
    #51 TP, Dec 29, 2004
  12. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    If they call Mary the mother of God, they are wrong.
     
    #52 Bro. Curtis, Dec 30, 2004
  13. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Curtis, Haven't you read what I posted? What part of it do you take issue with? This is a Christological statement not a Mariological one...

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #53 Matt Black, Dec 30, 2004
  14. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Diane said: Don't YOU understand that by giving Mary the title, Mother of God, that you diminish the Almighty and add to scripture?

    TP's Response: This is Title is given To Glorify God. To deny this title is to deny the Divinity of Christ. To accept this Title is to admit that Jesus is God. The Title is NOT for Mary, it is to Define who Jesus is. To deny the title is to deny the divinity of Christ: That attacks both the Almighty AND scripture.

    Catholic hogwash.
     
    #54 dianetavegia, Dec 30, 2004
  15. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    Here is your answer to my arguement: Catholic hogwash.

    Response: I love well thought out answers like that. I helps our discussions so much. I love the way you ignore any and all real intellectual thought. I wish I had the ability to completely turn off my mind to give such insightful answers.

    peace
     
    #55 TP, Dec 30, 2004
  16. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Show me some that isn't invented by the Catholic church but is straight from scripture and I'll give it some credence.
     
    #56 dianetavegia, Dec 30, 2004
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Catholics don't call Joseph "The Father of God" or even the "Guardian of God" and neither do we call him "Instructor of God" or "corrector of God". All such title merely confuse the status of "GOD" as well as falsely elevating a sinful human.

    The Catholics do not call James the "Brother of God" nor even the "step-brother of God" and neither do we call him "Elder brother of God".

    As it turns out - God has no mother and God has no beginning and no end, so in ALL OF SCRIPTURE there is NO MENTION of such a title for Mary as "Mother of God".

    Christ as not "born to a family" the way normal humans are - He was INCARNATED - so using normal family terms for the INCARNATE is to lower him to normal family status - which is also a deception.

    Is she the Mother of the Lord Jesus Christ - the INCARNATE Son of God? Yes. But you do not state the divinity of Christ by assigning Mary a title relative to God AS IF God is not INCARNATEd as Christ! The Title that Catholics give to Mary is the same - as if God actually was born -- had his START with Mary and Mary actually was GOD's MOTHER (no incarnation).

    That would be a "tiny god" indeed and a "great Mary" indeed by comparison to "the truth".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #57 BobRyan, Dec 30, 2004
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Lutheran article end with "it is God that is special not Mary" but as I show above the title is designed for the opposite effect. The title made up for Mary (and never used by any Bible writer) implies GOD has a START instead of showing that Christ had a START! How sad.

    The RC argument in introducing this error is the same as the Lutheran article makes - and the same as the OP here - they want to use one error to prop up another error in an either-or fallacy. They claim that you can either accept the erroneous title "Mother of God" or you must reject the Son of God as INCARNATE in Christ.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. That is simply the "rationalization" that they use to shoe-horn the favored error into the church to start with - while confronted witht the obvious fact that no Bible writer felt the need to make such an erroneous statement about Mary.

    And "yes" it IS a statement "about Mary" to call her "The Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, Co-redemptrix with Christ, Co-mediatrix with Christ".

    Obviously.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #58 BobRyan, Dec 30, 2004
  19. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    Okay, everyone here wants to show that Mary was the Mother of Jesus' Humanity, but not his divinity. Okay, if that is the case could someone please explain HOW Jesus was born without his divinity? How did Mary give birth to Just Humanity? it is a practical question. Who was it that came from her womb that first Christmas night? Who was it that Lay in the manger? Did she give birth to a human person and God was added on to her afterwards, or did God pass through her womb.

    Was Jesus the divine Person, or is he a Human person? Please give me these practical answers.

    peace
     
    #59 TP, Dec 30, 2004
  20. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: so using normal family terms for the INCARNATE is to lower him to normal family status - which is also a deception.

    Response: We can't use NORMAL family terms? Jesus was like us in ALL things except sin. All things. He is normal family. Lowering himself into a normal family was the REASON he came. He became like us, being born as a slave, even accepting death, death on a cross. Yes, God did lower himself to have a human mother.

    peace
     
    #60 TP, Dec 30, 2004
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