Mary was probably a nice person???

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by TP, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    The people on this board are VERY afraid of Mary. Perhaps we could a agree on the statement "Mary was probably a nice person?". Is that okay, or are you going to tell me how mean she was.

    I asked in another Post about the Legitimate title: "Mother of God". This has always been a legitimate theological title, with very important Christological implications. It was always accepted by ALL the reformers.

    Many on this board are SOOOO afraid of the appearance of seeming to be leaning to catholics, they attack this title. Actually, they are unable to discuss the title alone. They give the slippery slope arguement: Look at catholic views of Mary, Look at Co-remptrix, look at Marian prayers, look at ........Mary,....Mary... Mary.

    The problem was: I did not mention ANY of those other elements. By bringing them up others are only showing their fear of appearing CAtholic. All other mainline protestants have NO problem with this title theologically. They do not have any of those other marian elements. Why are People here SO afraid of this correct title?

    I am not saying you need to Dance around singing of the Mother of God or that you ever even discuss it. Just recognize the obvious. If Jesus is God, and Jesus passed through Mary's womb, then Mary is the mother of God. NOT creator of God, not the source of God, but Mother.

    My reason for this post is NOT discussion of the title(that is on another thread). My reason to post this is to ask: Why are people so afraid of even appearing catholic?

    peace
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    We are not afraid of Mary. She probably was a nice person. But, she was just another sinner like you and me who was by God in a mighty way. IOW, there is no reason whatsoever to pray to her or elevate her above all other humans in the world. We don't have a problem with her. We have a problem with those who wrongly worship her and pray to her. That is idolatry.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    Worship is of the heart. It is so interesting that people on this board can say catholics worship Mary without knowin our hearts. Not only that they can say that we worship Mary, even though EVERY official teaching we have says we do not worship Mary, and that to worship Mary is idolatry. You NOT only ignore EVERY thing we teach, but then you also judge our hearts. Now isn't that special.

    To enlighten everyone here: CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY. WE AGREE WITH YOU THAT IF A PERSON DOES WORSHIP MARY IT IS IDOLATRY. WE AGREE MARY WORSHIP IS IDOLATRY. THAT IS THE TEACHING OF THE CHURCH. BUT CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE COMMANDMENTS.

    Why do people insist on telling us that we do something when in our own teaching we are forbidden to do it.

    peace
     
  4. Joseph_Botwinick

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    You do elevate Mary above other women and you do pray to her. This is idolatry. Mary was just another sinner like every other human who was used greatly by God for his purpose in her life.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  5. Amen

    Amen
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    Dunno why but why does every Catholic think that we hate Mary? I don't think we have a problem with Mary, the angel did say "blessed art thou among women", not above, not below, just among women. I think she is probably grieved when the Romanist insist in praying to her, but then she is probably busy worshipping the Lord and have no idea what is going on in this world.
     
  6. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    Idolatry is to worship something that is not God as if it were God. NOBODY in the CAtholic church worships Mary. That is forbiden.

    Your problem is the lack of depth of the english language. The word Prayer is NOT the same as the word worship. The verb "to pray" means "to ask". That is how it is used by catholics. It is the same in romance languages: French: Priere(to ask, to pray). Italian: Pregare(to ask, to pray). The problem in english is we have two words: "to ask" is the from the anglo-saxon for 'to ask', and to 'to pray' comes from our french roots. You will still find to 'to pray' in its original meaning in formal situations such as a courtroom: by saying "I pray that the court has leniency on my client" is not to worship the court.

    When we say pray to mary, all that means is to ask mary to pray for us: I ask my mom to pray for me, my friends to pray for me, the saints and mary to pray for me. I have an entire army of prayers for me, including MY own prayers to Jesus Christ.

    Here is the problem: Catholic really believe that people are alive in heaven. We really believe that those who died in christ are around the throne in prayer for the whole world. Many protestants who do not believe in the communion of saints don't really believe in heaven because they deny that people are there.

    If you want to complain or disagree: Do not go against what we DO NOT teach. Do not say we worship something we don't worship. If you want to disagree, then disagree that the saints are really in heaven. At least we really teach that saints are in heaven, so you would have a legitimate disagreement.

    peace
     
  7. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    The scriptures also say of Mary: "All generations will call me blessed. The almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name."

    See, how many here have cried out recently that Mary is blessed by God. How many have spoken of all the great things God has done for mary? All I hear on this board is how normal she was.

    peace
     
  8. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Do you elevate Mary above all other women? If so, then you are committing idolatry. Do you pray to Mary? If you do, then you are committing idolatry.

    Mary was just another sinner whom God used for his purpose.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  9. KenH

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    Mary died long, long ago. She can't pray for anyone anymore.
     
  10. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    I do not elevate Mary above other women. God did. NOT for mary's glory, but for his. This is not idolatry, for God can do what he wants. He is the one who included it in his word when he recorded her saying: "All generations will call me blessed."

    The next poster said that Mary died long ago. See, Catholic believe that God is the giver of life. So anyone who died in Christ is in heaven. I don't think that people here really believe in heaven, because they can't imagine anyone being there.

    peace
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

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    1. Blessed among all women, not above. You are committing idolatry.

    2. Mary is in Heaven, but is not hearing any prayers or interceding on anyone's behalf. God is the one who hears our prayers. To pray to Mary is idolatry.

    3. I believe in Heaven.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. TP

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    1. Blessed among all women, not above. You are committing idolatry.

    Response: what of the passage when Mary says: All generations will call me blessed.? when was the last time you called mary blessed? No, admitting who God created mary to be is NOT idolatry.

    2. Mary is in Heaven, but is not hearing any prayers or interceding on anyone's behalf. God is the one who hears our prayers. To pray to Mary is idolatry.

    Response: NOBODY is worshipping Mary: To worship someone or something as God is idolatry. Since Mary is in heaven worshipping God, asking her to pray for me is not idolatry(Nobody is worshipping her) we are just admitting she is in heaven. OR do you deny she is in heaven. Where is the Worship here? there is not worship of mary, so no idolatry.

    3. I believe in Heaven.

    Response: How can this be if you do not believe that anyone is there?
     
  13. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    I am not afraid of Mary. She was cjosen by God to be the vessal to bring forth our Savior. What I do fear is all the spurious doctrine that has developed as a result of all the pagan baggage brought into the Church by some of the early fathers who felt they needed a female deity. The book of Acts contains the first 30 years of Church history and Mary isnt mentioned after chapter 2 and isnt mentioned in any of the epistles.
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I believe that Mary is in Heaven. I don't believe she is interceding for us. We can pray directly to God and he will hear our prayers. This is yet another heretical teaching of the RCC that we need to have someone to be our intermediary and that we cannot pray to God and he will hear our prayers.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  15. KenH

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    Mary is in Heaven. Tell me, in your theology, can anybody in heaven pray for TP or only certain people such as Mary?

    Also, where is your Scriptural support for asking someone in Heaven to pray for you?
     
  16. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    Now you are accusing the CAtholic church of making Mary a Goddess. Please show ONE document in all Church history that says Mary is divine or a goddess. I can point out place that discuss idolatry where Mary worship would be condemned. Please show me where the Catholic Church says to worship Mary, or that she is a goddess. See, this is where the people here have their PRe-conceived notions about the church and are going to believe them whethere they match reality or not.

    Mary is NOT a goddess. It is forbidden to worship Mary. These are teachings of the church. But people still say on this board: Catholics worship mary, she is a goddess. This is baloney and a lie. Why do people stick to a lie.

    peace
     
  17. KenH

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    Where do you Catholics, and you in particular, stand on the idea of Mary as being a co-redemptrix?
     
  18. TP

    TP
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    Greetings,

    You ask: Where do you Catholics, and you in particular, stand on the idea of Mary as being a co-redemptrix?

    Response: I personally do not like the title. Why? Not because it is wrong, but because people like those on this board will believe what they want about it and misreprent what it means.

    People on this board will say that it makes Mary equal to Jesus, and that Mary is divine, and that she is now part of the trinity(quadrinity). None of these things are true and that is not what is meant by this.

    The word 'Co-' means 'With'. It does NOT mean equal to, or That even the power comes from her. Jesus is the Power. Jesus is the reason for salvation. Jesus is the divine Power and the center. However, Mary did co-operate with God, so in her little part shared ministry with Jesus. In this we are ALL co-redemptrix in the sense that that co-operate with the grace that God gives us. All it means is we cooperate with God's Grace, as Mary co-operated with God's grace.

    I dislike the title because people will be confused an misinterpret it.

    peace
     
  19. Bro. Curtis

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    Or holy, or queen of heaven, or mother of mercy...lets look at the rosary, shall we......


    HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!


    V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
    R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.


    To thee we send up our sighs.....
    ...thine eyes of mercy upon us.....

    Looking to Mary to make us worthy of the promises of Christ....

    BALONEY!!!!!! Dude, that is worship.

    None of us, EVEN MARY are worthy of anything from Christ. No work from any person, dead or alive will make us worthy of his sacrifice.
     
  20. KenH

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    Thanks for your response, TP. [​IMG]

    Now, where is your Scriptural support for asking a mortal person, now in Heaven, to pray for you?
     

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