Mary Worshipers

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mojoala, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. mojoala

    mojoala
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    I just found this and found it very defending.

    Catholics worship Mary
    No We don't
    Yes you do
    No We don't
    Yes you do...etc.

    That accusation can be easily flattened.

    Catholics love Mary as a human being, as a mother. They feel quite free to "call her blessed" (Luke 1.48) with a "loud voice," (Luke 1.41), just as the Holy Spirit instructed (same passage).

    For those who say Mary is dead and can't hear it, I have some words straight from the mouth of Jesus--"God is God of the Living, NOT of the Dead."

    If Moses and Elijah put in an appearance on Mount Tabor and chatted with Jesus about his ministry (as Scripture records), then I'd highly posit that these men were "in the know" through God's power and not "dead." Moreover, if the martyrs beneath the altar in the book of Revelation (6:9-11) are appealing to God about things going on across the earth and asking God when he was going to take action, then I'd highly posit that they are NOT dead, either.

    Really: to "worship" Mary would require that the *intellect* makes a firm decision to believe that Mary is Divine or that she created the world. Even the most uneducated catholic, I believe, does not make that kind of intellectual decision. Thus, Mary cannot be worshipped unless a person claims, with full intellect, that she is divine. Case closed.

    Otherwise, Mary is loved and appreciated with the same sort of devotion one renders to one's own beloved mother, for example. Jesus doesn't get "jealous" or "green with envy" when we "love" our own mothers. There's no passage in Scripture that forbids us to "love" his own Mother, who was explicitly given to christians as their own mother, as well.

    Protestants often make the grave mistake of treating Mary as if she were a mere "vessel" -- which is the same thing as saying she was a Petrie Dish that God used and threw away. They also often make the mistake of believing that God "woke-up" one day, yawned, decided it was time to "send his Son to earth," and then started looking, at random, for the proper "gal" to serve as a temporary incubator.

    It is written that God knows each of us from the very moment of conception..."from the womb"...and that God has a plan and mission for each of us and prepares us according to our free will and cooperation with his grace.

    God didn't just "pick" Mary out of some Galileean "line-up." She was destined, prepared, and graced to be the MOTHER of the Divine Word. Not a temporary "holding-tank." She gave human nature to the utter, omnipotent "DIVINE," according to her free will, faith, and cooperation--even to the point of possibly losing her own life, her husband, and her entire world.

    Mary's faith was the 'contact point' for the greatest event that ever happened in this universe or any other, the greatest miracle in that thing we humans call "time"-- the Divine becomes part of matter, part of the material "existence." It gives me the shivers simply to think about the astonishing, mind-blowing reality of it. And Protestant literalists so often toss Mary aside the way they foolishly think that God "tossed her aside" after demanding temporary use of her reproductive organs.

    She raised him. Educated him. Nursed him. Shared her own faith with him. LIVED with Jesus for 30 years as mother first in faith, and THEN in flesh. Her grace (given lavishly by God: Luke 1.28) and her free response to that saving grace, made it possible for all of humanity (and creation) to be redeemed by Jesus. It was the greatest "collaborative effort" that could ever possibly be effected or even imagined, through all ages, all times, all places, all possibilities.

    Also, if Protestants want to bully Catholics for having sacred artwork, then they had best be prepared to throw their Bibles into the garbage cans. Why? Because every single letter, on every single page, in every single Bible in the world, is an IMAGE. It's created "material" of ink, made by human beings. *Every* letter. Do these letter-images convey truth and inspiration? Yes. Just as sacred art does. Protestants should also be ready to throw-out all of their family photo-albums and cherished "films." All are images.

    But some Protestants have a valid point about excessive displays of "reverence" paid by Catholics to statues, pictures, et al. I would personally prefer to see sacred Christian art "considered" rather than "fussed-over." Statuary and icons may be cherished and revered as material things representing and conveying truths that inspire and teach us, or lift our minds to the Divine (just as the ink letter-IMAGES of scripture do), but I find no point in dressing statues in gowns or jewels and grovelling before them. Christian art can be properly revered without such excess.

    We need to pray for vocations, but we need to inspire vocations, too--in proper candidates. This takes a community--from the family to the entire parish.

    I just had to share it.

    Cheers.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    First of all - I will show some RC quotes that SHOW the extent to which mariolotry is practiced in direct opposition to the Word of God.

    I also totally reject the RC error of praying to the dead.

    OK - so now you know where I stand.

    But having said all of that -- I want to give you a point. You have done well to bring up the case of Matt 17 and the transfiguration. THIS is where you have the most common ground with non-Catholic Christians that think just as you do in that one particular case!

    Well done!

    Your error of course IN THAT case is that Elijah never died (see 2 Kings 2) and your other error is that we have that pesky little book "The ASSUMPTION OF MOSES" quoted in the book of Jude.

    BOTH of these facts together make a good case for the LIVING Elijah in Matt 17 and the LIVING Moses!

    Not Christ engaged in a seance as the RCC had so hoped to spin that chapter.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Also your reference to Matt 21 and Christ saying to the Sadduccees "God is not the God of the dead but of the living" -- totally destroys your own argument.

    Christ states in that chapter that He is PROVING the resurrection! He is not PROVING that you should "pray to the dead".

    The only way His argument REQUIRES "resurrection" when He says that God said to MOSES "I AM the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob" is IF the COMMON GROUND views are correct in Matt 21.

    TO make a good debate point you have to take facts that both sides AGREE to -- place them together such that the opposing side CAN NOT deny IT!

    That is exactly what Christ did. HE SHOWS that the view of death held by the Sadducees REQUIRES them to accept the teaching of the resurrection as the ONLY SOLUTION to the puzzle they are faced with. And that view did NOT allow for "dead men walking" as you seem to hope in the arguments made for praying to dead ancestors made by the RCC.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. LeBuick

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    Is this really a book? You have a link to it? I find so many books I've yet to read on this forum that I can just scream!
     
  5. BobRyan

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    This is a book in the Pseudepigrapha. But if you have an NIV study Bible or just about any other good study Bible - go to Jude 9 and look at the notes. The study Bibles will explain that Jude is quoting from the book "The Assumption of Moses" which deals with that very subject.

    The problem is that half of the book has been lost over time.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Here is a source you can reference online.

     
  7. BobRyan

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    The reformation scholarship considered Origen and Clement of Alexandria to have some knowledge of what Jude is using as a reference for Jude 9 - and so also more recent scholarship.


     
  8. LeBuick

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    More proof God hates our sins but loves us sinners... :saint:
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Thanks fot it - now I am more than ever convinced the Roman Catholic Church is antichrist.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    In a 1985 address at the Marian shrine in Guayaquil, Ecuador, Pope John Paul II said:

    "Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes’ of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. There also, accepting and assisting at the sacrifice of her son, Mary is the dawn of Redemption....Crucified spiritually with her crucified son




    (cf. Gal. 2:20), she contemplated with heroic love the death of her God, she ‘lovingly consented to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth’ (Lumen Gentium, 58)....In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God’ (Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity....In fact, Mary's role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) 318-319 [ORE 876:7]).
    [/quote]
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Some of our Catholic brethren have argued the point by saying "you never find us worshipping Mary".

    For in support of that you will NEVER find anything like the Following praise and worship to God given to Mary.

    Here it is phrased as WORSHIP to CHRIST with Mary “added” as IF this adoration and worship due to Christ can ALSO be given to Mary WITH Christ.



    In this form it would appear that all this praise, prayer, honor, veneration and glory applies to Mary and would even at that small level be a gross error.

    So – we sure are glad that it is not out there.

    However - to "correct" that quote so that it IS "exactly" what we DO find the Papal authority saying -- all we have to do is remove all the references to God - and replace them with references to Mary.!!!

    Here is the correct quote – this is what Pope Pius XII “DID” write

    In this case we just TAKE CHRIST OUT of the incorrect quote above – so that it just references MARY ALONE!! Doing that gives us the EXACT teaching as the Pope actually taught it.

    WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

     
  12. BobRyan

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    All Powerful Mary –


     
  13. Eric B

    Eric B
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    Here is a verse, which I have never seen cited in this debate, but it suddenly dawned on me how pertinent it is:
    Luke 11:27, 28: And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare you, and the breast which you have sucked.
    But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

    Someone comes thinking that His mother is worthy of special veneration, and He quickly deflects the focus to the Word of God. So she may be blessed, but Jesus Himself tells us that that is not our concern, but rather God's.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    That is a very good point Eric.

    Jesus seems to be going back to the idea God stated through Samuel "To obey is better than to sacrifice". Christ is saying that as much as it is true that Mary is blessed, favored and was shown special honor by God in being given the priviledge of being the mother of the Messiah - STILL GREATER (by comparison) is the blessing and honor and priviledge of anyone (including Mary) who chooses to switch from rebellion against God to obedience. (I.E accepts the new Birth, born again with the law of God written on the heart).

    It is amazing that Christ (as King of the Universe) still views this "rebellion thing" as an issue of loyalty and choice.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. mojoala

    mojoala
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    You all cited good counter arguments.

    I've been doing some study on this.

    The problem is these are just from books and letters.

    They are not official teachings to be believed as doctrine by All Catholics. Anybody can write what they want to or what they believe.

    Until the Vatican puts it out as an Official Doctrine then it all an opinion. Just like the writings of the "Early Fathers of the Reformation Era"

    Nice try.

    But these guy's defense against the accusation still stands and is strong and powerful.

    I would worried more about those that engage in bibleidolatry.

    How many people pray before a Bible.?

    How many hold the Bible up in their hands while they pray.

    Some people will after reading the Bible, bow their heads in the direction of the Bible and began praying.

    Answer me this.

    A. How many hours to do you spend praying to God?
    B. How many hours do you spend reading the Bible?

    If the answer to B is greater than the answer to A, then you're are guilty of BibleIdolatry.

    Reading the Bible is not worshipping God.

    You spend more time reading the Bible then you do worshipping God, then your guilty of breaking the First Commandment.

    Matter of fact anything that you do that is pleasurable and that you do more than Worshinping God than you're guilty of Idolatry.

    We are called to pray unceasingly.


    Anyway back to the articles. None of those declare Mary as Divine. And niether is worshipping is implied.

    I person that has left this world is either:

    Dead: living out in torment in Hell.

    or

    Alive: basking in the Glory of God.

    Bible says he is not the God of the Dead but of the Living. He is God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

    Lets break it down.

    1. God is the god of the living.

    2. God is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

    3. Based on statement 2, we can rightfully say that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are in Heaven.

    4. Therefore we can conclule that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are ALIVE.

    5. Mary is beyond a shadow of a doubt is in Heaven.

    6. By evidence of Revelation (6:9-11) that those in heaven are very well are aware of everything that is going on earth.

    7. There seems to be a gross misunderstanding of what is going on in heaven. Some say that once we get there, we will be doing nothing but standing before the throne before for all eternity before. If that is the case what is the purpose for all those mansions that Jesus is preparing for us? If we are in a continuous state of worship than how do these people in heaven in Revelations have time to worry about being avenged?

    8. I am pretty sure that the prayers that Mary offers to Jesus on our behalf reach him with more effect than your own.

    9. Why ask Mary to pray for us? For the same reason you would ask the person sitting next to you to pray for you.

    10. Why ask the person sitting nest to you to pray for you. if praying directly to Jesus does it all. Why ask another to pray for you period.

    11. I have no problem asking all those that are in heaven to pray for me. They have not need for sleep. They can pray day and night for us down here.

    12. Remember we, once in heaven will share in Christ's ______________. I let you feel in the blank by doing some scripture search.

    13. What is a Saint. Well if you look at the Greek word that is used and apply every definition than Saints are only those in Heaven.

    H6918
    קדשׁ קדושׁ
    qâdôsh qâdôsh
    kaw-doshe', kaw-doshe'
    From H6942; sacred (ceremonially or morally); (as noun) God (by eminence), an angel, a saint, a sanctuary: - holy (One), saint.

    G40
    ἅγιος
    hagios
    hag'-ee-os
    From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

    THERE MAY ONLY BE A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE ON THIS EARTH THAT MY QUALIFY AS A SAINT: ONE WHO IS PHYSICALLY PURE AND MORALLY BLAMELESS AND MORALLY RELIGIOUS AND CEREMONIALLY CONSECRATED AND HOLY.

    We are called to be saints, but we all fall short of Glory.


     
  16. BobRyan

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    Nice try.

    The Vatican errors were condemned in scripture.

    In Mark 7 Christ said "IN VAIN do they worship me teaching for DOCTRINE the commandments of men".

    This was said of the ONE true church STARTED by God at Sinai.

    The vatican failed that test many centuries ago.

    (oh yeah - and why in the world would you offer a cult-style argument in favor of the RCC on a NON-RC web site???)

    Next.

    But - why not consider accepting the Bible as the Word of God instead of whatever man-made doctrine the authors of the "Dark Ages" hand you?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Instead of "making stuff up" why not FIND a quote from Billy Graham saying that we should create shrine or an altar to the bible and then worship at that ALTAR!!??

    In other words if you really want to equivocate between Mariolotry and reverence for the Bible - AT the very LEAST you should find equivalent "quotes".

    "Worship at your altars" ??? "SUNG around your ALTARS"???

    Wake up and smell the coffee.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    The problem is that the AUTHORS you are discrediting are Catholic Popes!!

    (Nothing like watching Catholics discredit Catholic popes -- the successors of Peter).

    The big problem is that the RC myth of "excathedra" pronouncements was not made up until the late 1800's.

    So that means you have little if nothing in the RCC endorsed "excathedra" as an explicit statement!!

    No wonder so many Catholics in the dark ages formed armies to fight fellow Catholics. They could not determine the "official" from the non-official!!
     
  19. LeBuick

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    Which again highlights the weakness of the RCC faith. Don't anyone find it funny the only person with a Bible is the priest? They learn chants and responses but for the most part, the priest can present what ever he wishes to them and since he is the only ones with a Bible then it must be considered true.

    As for the vaticans, they have been known to change their views. GOD does not change. With one pope divorce is acceptable under certian conditions then the next may tweak that a bit. Sin does not get tweaked. What was a transgression against GOD during the creation is still a transgression in these modern times.


    Great, Great point Eric B. I'd never noticed that verse in this light... :thumbs:

    EDIT... Let me add, I might more agree if the RCC had given the Popes Apostolic Authority based on what COULD be possibly passed down from Peter. However, to give Divine authority is giving something Peter himself did not have.
     
    #19 LeBuick, Jul 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2006
  20. mojoala

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    I would respond by telling them to think about it in another context. You meet a nice young man, Godly, well groomed, successful, intelligent and well spoken. You hear him give an impressive speech, and afterwards you say the following to him:

    "Your mother must be a wonderful woman to have raised such a fine young man."

    Who is the compliment directed at? Well...both, really, but mainly the young man. It's barely about the mother at all. What would you think about things if he said the following:

    "No she's not! Don't say that! The only wonderful people are those who are nothing like her!"

    Personally, I would think that is a very disrespectful thing to say about your mother, especially publicly, and particularly because that's liable to get you stoned under Levitical law. Since Jesus kept the Law perfectly, we know that's not what He meant.

    What would it mean, according to Jesus' words, if Mary "heard the word of God and put it into practice" perfectly? Would she be more blessed? Perhaps "blessed amongst women"? Since there's no way to say great-er or great-est in Hebrew, the only way to say it is by circumlocution - by saying a man is "tall amongst men", you're saying that he's the tallest.

    You might also respond by asking how Mary's soul magnifies the Lord for them (Luke 1:46)?
     

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