Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

Jesus died, was buried, and the third day rose again.
I ask you again: Was his body entirely non functional such that it returned to dust?
Does it now function in an eternal state? yes or no?
Does this now defeat your argument of definining such words as destoy, death, and kill? Your definitions do not work.

 

Jesus died and was resurrected and I believe his body is indeed functional now. To be more clear, I will add the following qualification to my definition of what it means to "kill" a body: God has the power to reverse the results of such "killing". With this qualification, I submit that the argument stands.

The act of "killing" renders the body totally non-functional. The fact that Jesus' body did not return to dust is not relevant to the argument. What is relevant is the fact that killing does a certain thing to a body - it renders it into a state where it is non-functional. This is a state which cannot reasonably be seen as a "perpetually functional" state. That is what is important to the argument.

The fact that Jesus was later resurrected is a rabbit trail to my argument. Here is proof: Let's say that I kill "Fred". Luckily for Fred, someone has the technology to repair Fred's injuries and reverse the decay. He has been "brought back to life". Does this change the fact that the act of killing Fred rendered him non-functional and started him down the path to dust?: Of course not.

You seem to be arguing that since Jesus was resurrected, I cannot claim that to "kill" a body causes that body to become non-functional and begin the process of decaying. After all, Jesus's body was fully restored.

However, it was restored by a separate act. This does not change the fact that "killing" a body renders it non-functional and initiates decay. And this is all that needs to be established in order to get the needed premise for the rest of the argument.

 

Jesus was resurrected. He appered to his disciples in bodily form. He ate with them. Were you the one that defined soul as "life?" Or don't you believe in the soul or spirit at all. I think I read something to that effect in one of your posts.
If the soul is but life, and there is no spirit--that is, if man is but dualistic (something you did claim was a belief of man), then what happened to Jesus when he appeared to his disciples. His life was in him. His eternal spirit also was in him. He is an eternal spirit now clothed with an eternal body which did not exist before the virgin birth.
This will happen to each one of us who puts their trust in Christ. We have a soul, and we have a spirit. The spirit will live on forever in spite of what happes to the body. The spirit will live on forever. At our resurrection we will receive (like Jesus) an new and glorified body. We also will live on forever. We, in that sense will be immortal. We are immortal beings.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

That is absolutely right, and that argument alone defeats soul sleep. God is the God of the living. The God of Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, etc. All these OT saints, as well as all the believers in Christ since that time are all alive with Christ in Heaven today sitting at the feet of Jesus worshiping Him. They are not dead. Their bodies may be in the grave. But their spirits are alive in heaven. God is not the God of the dead. He is the God of the Heaven. And those saints are alive in heaven today.
The doctrine of soul sleep is a hoax.

 

HP: Very well stated DHK.

 

"That wild speculative" statement Jesus used against the Sadducees was the exact argument that put the Sadducees to silence concerning the resurrection, and the consequent fallacious hoax of the doctrine of soul sleep.
Take your matter up with Christ. He argues against you.
He is the God of the living not the God of them them than "sleep."

 

I would say that Paul disagrees with the above when he writes:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Let me ask a direct question. What do you believe is the state of those who have fallen "asleep" as Paul writes? I assume that you have no choice but to assert that this "sleep" refers to death of the body and not the soul. I leave it to the reader to decide how reasonable this sounds, that a person whose consciousness is in full flower, who is in heaven in a thinking, feeling, communicating state, that such a person can reasonably be described as being "asleep".

Paul goes on to rather clearly declare that it is only after Christ's return that we are "made alive". Again, I would think that those who believe that souls are presently in heaven would need to argue that "being made alive" must refer to the process of getting a resurrection body with which to wrap an already fully conscious soul / spirit.

This does not sound much like being "made alive" to me. It is just getting a container for our souls. If I understand the "immortal soul" view properly, it is the soul that bears consciounsness, engages in communication, thinks, etc. Sounds like the soul that is in Heaven before Christ's return is very much alive already.

Not to mention all the following texts which support the notion that humans effectively enter a state of "sleep" after death. It is interesting to me that none of these texts have footnotes that say "by the way, I was only talking about the body when I wrote this". Since it is the soul that apparently really bears the essence of who we really are, such an oversight seems strange indeed.

1 Kings 1:21
Otherwise it will come about, as soon as my lord the king sleeps with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon will be considered offenders."
Job 14:12
So man lies down and does not rise.
Until the heavens are no longer,
He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
Psalm 13:3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God;
Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death
Daniel 12:2
Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover."Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead".
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
Acts 7:59-60
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:18
Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1 Corinthians 15:20
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:13
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
2 Peter 3:4
Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

 

Paul never refers to the spirits of those that had died before the Thessalonica believers alive at that time. The word "asleep" refers to those who had died, yes, but it always refers to thier bodies. He is referring to the resurrection. The resurrection always refers to the body, always. Are you a J.W. and believe that the resurrection of Christ was only a so-called "spirit-resurrection" which in reality is no resurrection at all. Paul wasn't referring to this either. Those that are asleep are those bodies that are in the graves. He is not referring to the spirits which are alive and with the Lord in heaven.
Paul says quite specifically:
"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
It is evident that their consciousness and their spirit was with the Lord. That was Paul's teaching. Someday their bodies would rise from their sleep, and meet the Lord in their air. Their spirits would join with thier bodies, of course, at that time.

Jesus declares: God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
Paul declared: To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Therefore your assertion is false and wrong.

The spirit (of those believers that have already died) are in heaven. Read the book of Revelation and see what John saw. He saw those who had been dead and had believed singing the song of the redeemed.

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

This isn't an argument for soul sleep is it? What did John see? The resurrection had not yet taken place (that is the resurrection of all believers). He saw the spirits of believers, those who had been redeemed by the blood of the lamb, singing a new song, and praise to God. This is not soul sleep, is it? They were doing anything BUT sleeping.

 

No. A person who sleeps will indeed, in terms of the content of their experience, indeed transition to a state of immediate presence with the Lord, even if they have slept for thousands of years in between. The style of delivery of the "to be absent from the body..." teaching can easily be seen as taking a "what it will be like" perspective.

 

You have just dismissed all the Scripture I have given you with an opinion.

 

Obviously not!
You say that Jesus was agreeing with the Sadducees. Hardly! The Sadducees did not believe in the Resurrection. They were the liberals of the day, denying many of the orthodox doctrines of the faith. NO, Jesus did not agree with them. He was sounldy rebuking them.

God is not the God of the dead but of the living. The reason that he made that statement is that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, but of course Christ and his disciples did. He was pointing out the error of their way. There was a resurrection. There are people in heaven--even now.

Matthew 22:31-32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

There is a resurrection of the dead--dead bodies, not spirits. The spirits are already in heaven as is evidenced by the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus lay in Abraham's bosom (paradise). But even greater evidence is given by John in Rev.5:9

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

So who are these people? They are the redeemed. They are the spirits of the saved awaiting the resurrection of the dead, which had not happened yet (and still has not happened). But the dead in Christ live on in heaven while their bodies lie dead (asleep) in the grave, turning to dust and ashes.