Matt. 16.18--A View Biblically Considered

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Frogman, Oct 13, 2003.

  1. Frogman

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    John Gill on Matt. 16.18

     
  2. Frogman

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    The following is shorter than what I opened this thread with. Because of this I thought some may be more inclined to read it. Note each of these are pre-Luther and each of these speak of Baptist distinctives.

    hummmm.....

     
  3. Frogman

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    I know this is difficult for you guys to read, after all it isn't in Latin. And I am sure that it bothers you more that Gill is already passed on and that half way through this you are itching to build a bonfire and have a pep rally, but please try to read through before you burn your PC's, maybe you won't learn something, but then again, maybe you will.

    That last thought brought up another question: Are you afraid you will or you won't learn something?
     
  4. BobRyan

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    You forgot to mention - Matt 16 is where Christ addresses Peter as "Satan".

    Also 1Cor 3 is where Paul informs us that there is only ONE foundation for the church - and that is Christ.

    In 1Cor 10 he tells us that the Rock - the Petros is Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Stephen III

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    Froggy,

    You wrote:
    Another question?
    Where, in that long oration of Gill's interpretation of Matt16:18, are we to find a question?

    Are you looking for an adverse reaction to something in particular, or to the whole?
    Or, perhaps you're looking for the "amen" choir of like minded Protestants?
     
  6. Frogman

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    Tried to shorten for you guys to make it more readable.

    Bro. Bob, this is Gill speaking and not me. Note the portion below, he does address the falsehood of Peter being ever established in any office above any other.

    Stephen III, if I were a Protestant, I might just be looking for that Amen corner. But I have never been in a protestant church possessing such a corner. Since I am not a protestant, I cannot be seeking their approval. What I am posting is historical evidence of the Baptist distinctives. The second post I made is better than Gill. They were before Gill and before Luther and note how there is found Baptist distinctives among the Waldenses.

    I tried to highlight the main points.


    Again, Gill
    [ October 13, 2003, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  7. Stephen III

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    Forgive me, but I still don't see your question. [​IMG]
     
  8. Frogman

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    Perhaps there is no question. This is as the title speaks the Biblical view of Matt. 16.18. I didn't realize it would be accepted so readily. I thought I would post it to show what is really taught at Matt. 16.18.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    Whereas the Papacy is left clinging to the argument that through the lineage of sometimes good and other times wicked popes the Christian faith was preseved,, the argument Dallas makes on this thread is that the pure Christian faith was preserved by Godly saints in all ages - persecuted and abused JUST as were the saints of the first century.

    Amen!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Frogman

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    There's that Amen! Corner yet. :D [​IMG]

    BTW, the wavey doesn't mean I am charismatic.

    Amen Bro. Bob. An interesting study is the root of our religious freedoms in this country. Preserved as such by the same Grace of God whereby His only Begotten Son was sent into the world to seek and save that which was lost.


    Bro. Dallas

    [ October 14, 2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
     
  11. Frogman

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  12. Stephen III

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    I don't doubt that everyone here believes you have readily accepted Gill's interpretation. As far as showing what is really taught at matt. 16:18, I guess we're still waiting. But here is an interesting start with a bit of Hebrew slant on the verse:

    Taken from a Hebrew Catholic website found at:
    http://www.angelfire.com/ny/Yeshuaslight/petersseat.html


     
  13. Frogman

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    If the church was not authorized yet until Pentecost, then the ordinances are meaningless to the church and pertained only to the Apostles, and then not even to Mathhias and Paul.

    To quote Judaizing believers does not prove anything concerning the origin of your traditions as having come from Christ. Christ came to, and did fulfill the Law. The perversion of the Church in Rome was to seek after that preeminence among the independent local bodies of immersed believers who made up the church Christ organized and then to claim salvation in none but herself and by her administration. And then to set about to burn any who bowed to Christ rather than to her self-exalted head.

    Show me where Peter claimed this authority upon himself. From scripture rather than a group of Judaizers who would creep in unawares to spy our liberty and rob us of it and thus exalt themselves even as your Pope.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. Stephen III

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    How do you get "not authorized"; out of "this authority started"?
    The church was authorized with Christ's exclamation that he would build (a future reference)a church and give Peter the keys of the kingdom through the powers to loose and bind. The so-called "ordinances" were given by Christ for the faithfuls' assurance of Christ always being with His Church (through the Holy Spirit) These "ordinances" include: The assurance that the Church would survive (as it has!) noted in His statement that the gates of hades would not prevail against Her.
    The church became evident, that is earthly visible through the appearence of the Holy Spirit descending on those in the upper room. The feast of Pentecost as the Jews were celebrating at the time is a gathering of the harvest, a 50 day gathering that ends in a big feast day. The beginning of the church fills in typology that gathering of the harvest into Her. To one day end in a large feast day.
    The harvest of the church are the peoples of the earth.
    The great commission of Christ is to go and make disciples of all nations, and the Church is to be one (as Christ Himself prayed for), holy as was Christ himself,(remember "as the Father has sent me so I send you"), universal ("disciples of all nations") and by neccesity and what became obvious: Apostolic (as Paul and Matthias are examples) The Church was to be visible (like a "city set on a hill")and would yield the authority of Christ himself (the holy Spirit would guide, and again as Christ was sent with authority so he sent with authority first individually to Peter then to the body of the Apostles). Why would anyone want to deny that Christ's church excludes these characteristics or "ordinances" if you prefer.

    You seem to not only want to deny that the Catholic Church is that Church that meets these criteria but that the Church is not even identifiable in these characteristics.

    It is not the case that an "independent" church was seeking to establish preeminence for itself as there was no seperate AUTHENTIC apostolic tradition. The church was one body with different satellite locations if you will. They may have varied in the running of the local office (as each location would have its own individual idiosynchrocies) but they would be one in their having one guide (the Holy Spirit). The argument that Christ came to establish a local autonomous church body and a wider invisible body of "immersed" constituents who could vary in the fundamentals with the fickleness of men (as the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the confusion that reigns within those opposed to the authentic Apostolic tradition established by Christ) is not just foolhardy but is indeed EXACTLY what the advesary of Christ would prefer.

    Lets not get into all the rhetorical jabs about the Puritans burning witches etc. As part of the harvest we would both agree include the wheat and the chaff.

    Blessings
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    If Peter was the Rock and the first pope sitting in Rome extending his hand with the holy pontiff's ring on his finger to the lesser bishops, then who did the O.T. saints go to for guidance? I don't read much about Mary and nothing about Peter in the O.T. I guess they were just stuck with good, old Almighty God. Almost a step down don't you think?

    Not.
     
  16. thessalonian

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    Joseph the infallible interpruter of dreams,
    Moses and his chair.
    Eliakim in Is 22.
    Well I guess his name is not mentioned so you could put your head in the sand if you would like. Then again by that arguement Jesus was not the Messiah either.

    Snore.
     
  17. CatholicConvert

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    Hello Frogman --

    You wrote and asked us if we were afraid to read your post because we might learn something.

    Perhaps a quick history (mine) is in order.

    I was a Bob Jones Fundamentalist for 13 years. After that, a Presbyterian Calvinist for the next 12 years. During that whole time, I was convinced of every objection and "error" which you believe you see in the Church. The most ardent anti-Catholic on this board is no more vocal nor hateful towards the Church and the Catholic Faith than I was.

    Now there is only one of two things which could have happened to me....

    Either I completely lost my mind, and in my state of insanity, ran down to the nearest papist repository of idolatry and begged them to sell my soul to the devil.

    OR

    I studied the issues quite thoroughly, delving into history, reading the statements of the Early Fathers, asking questions -- lots of questions -- and built upon the foundations which were built in me by Fundamentalism and Calvinism, especially that of the Covenant of God.

    And while I know that a small handful of folks on this board will read the first example and declare

    "Yeppp, that is surely what must have happened to him. Lost his blinkin' mind!!"

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    May I assure you that it was the second.

    And having studied the issue with a certain thoroughness, and continuing to study, I must reject out of hand, any system of thought which contradicts the Covenant of God and how He deals with us in that covenant relationship.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed

    PS...Believe it or not, it is the covenantal relationship of mankind to God which will take care of the difficulties you have with the Marian doctrines, which are very hard on Anabaptists, and the soteriological and eclessological issues which are a problem for you at this time.
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    Catholic Convert,

    Your background is interesting.

    Can you give me a chapter or chapters and verses for you Marian doctrines?

    People switch from one denomination to another every day. This does not make you the correct theological guru. I think it does show that you have a greater understanding about Catholicism than most Catholics, but that is all.

    You must admit that without your church traditions and ex cathedras, you have no solid ground to stand on as to your faith. I stand solidly on the Word of God the Bible. When Christ judges me, it will be from the words of His Book that was inspired by Him; I doubt, if He will call for one of the elders in Heaven to bring out a book of the traditions and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. I could be wrong, but I doubt that He will have one of those bad popes delivering the errors of the centuries to His side, just for His Personal reference.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Imagine coming from a solid - informed "Bob Jones" perspective to ...

    1. Prayers to the dead.
    2. Deification of Mary as "Mother of God", "sinless like Christ" - "Co redemptrix" "Queen of Heaven" " allpowerful like Christ", worship at her "altars".
    3. Purgatory - a place to go to suffer on your way to heaven.

    4. Turning a blind eye to the slaughter of the saints in the dark ages by the RCC - and EVEN of the RCC killing fellow catholics in papal wars.

    5. The system of idolatry that the "FAith Explained" declares someon from the Bob-Jones doctrinal perspective MUST conclude for Catholics.

    6. Discounting the fall of man, the creation of the world - the LITERAL events described in Genesis 1-7 that form the basis for the Gospel solution.

    "Hard to believe" that someone with the "Bob Jones" background could wander so far afield.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Frogman

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    Dear Catholic Convert,

    If I am or have been hateful forgive me because of my nature.

    You wrote this:
    PS...Believe it or not, it is the covenantal relationship of mankind to God which will take care of the difficulties you have with the Marian doctrines, which are very hard on Anabaptists, and the soteriological and eclessological issues which are a problem for you at this time.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I have no problems with Anabaptists, I have no difficulties with soteriology nor eclessiology as they are taught in scripture. I am/do have(ing) difficulties with Mariology. I do not find it in scripture. It is for this reason alone that I would think Catholicism is idolotry.

    With the Son of God as my mediator, why would I want to risk placing another between me and Him?

    Bro. Dallas
     

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