Matt 28:19

I do not believe that our articles of faith out rank the Bible but I believe they are derived from scripture.

In order for you to understand where my reply is coming from I need to talk a little history. Most Baptist Associations in the United States are descendant from the original Philadelphia Association. My home church’s linage from the Philadelphia association is Ketockon then the North District, then the Burning Springs, then the New Salem, and finally the Union Association. My home church is the Union Church organized in 1820 and the mother church of the Union Association. Our beloved mother association (from which our articles of faith are derived) had this in their articles of faith: (See this link for scriptural references for each of the Philadelphia Association’s articles of Faith http://www.carmichaelbaptist.org/Articles%20of%20Faith/pcofcontents.htm )
Chapter 27
7. The way appointed by Christ for the calling of any person, fitted and gifted by the Holy Spirit, unto the office of bishop, or elder, in a church is, that he be chosen thereunto by the common suffrage of the church itself; and solemnly set apart by fasting and prayer, with imposition of hands of the eldership of the church, if there be any before constituted therein: and of a deacon that he be chosen by the like suffrage, and set apart by prayer, and the like imposition of hands.
Chapter 29
Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper
1. Baptism and the Lord's Supper, are ordinances of positive and sovereign institution, appointed by the Lord Jesus, the only Law giver, to be continued in His church to the end of the world.
2. These holy appointments are to be administered by those only, who are qualified, and thereunto called according to the commission of Christ.
Our beloved mother association dealt with the question of who had the authority to baptize at least 6 times during their first 100 years (1729, 1732, 1744, 1749, 1768, and 1788). Each of these years the association answered that ordained authority were to baptize. In 1788, This is a part of the response that they gave from item 15 of the 1788 minutes: “Because such administrator has no commission to baptize for the words of the commission were addressed to the apostles, and their successors in the ministry to the end of the world, and these are such, whom the church of Christ appoint to the whole work of the ministry”.

I like our elder brethren, believe that ordained authority is the ones that are to administer the ordinance of Baptism.

 

I meant to say our articles do not out rank the bible

 

God is not the one that has to accept water baptism it is for the local church to accept. The baptism of the fire and the Holy Ghost is the baptism that God accepts. By the way you are asking this question it appears that you are saying that water baptism saves. It does not. Water baptism is an answer of a good conscience towards God. I Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

And no we are not in rebellion towards God.

 

Phillip baptizing the eunuch would be one example of it not being a local church ordinance.

When you say "my own preference" are you agreeing it's not a biblical command and that it is not only the local churches authority to baptize?

One of the things I am looking forward to is baptizing my children one day, God willing. God has placed me as the spiritual leader in my home. I have no problem doing it in our church with our pastor, but I would also have no problem doing it in the Caribbean Ocean on vacation if that is God's timing in bringing them to Him. Like TinyTim pointed out, it is not a scriptural mandate to be done only by the local church.

 

As a Baptist I believe that baptism is a beautiful symbolic act of what has already taken place when the person accepted Christ as their savior ... death to the old life and resurrection to the new life in Christ.

As the person is already saved when the accept Christ before baptist, then at Baptist it does not matter if the person performing the baptism is ordained or not. In Baptist tradition an ordained pastor is almost always the one who performs the ceremony. To my knowledge scripture does not call for an ordained person to preform a baptism.

The ceremony of Baptist is about the person, not the ordnance, and his public witness of turning his life over to Christ, of, as I said, his/her death to the old life and his/her resurrection to the new life in Christ.

 

Philip was a member of the congregation at Jerusalem, and baptized under their authority. I think it's interesting that when Philip preached in Samaria, the results were so spectacular that Peter and John down there to check it out--call it oversight. Philip, by the way, was an ordained deacon.

My own preference is that the one who baptizes be ordained, but I don't think the scriptures demand it. The local church, guardian of the ordinances, may designate whom it will to baptize. I think it would be great if your church would authorize you to baptize your children when the time comes. And it's in the ocean, have at it.

 

Now, let me throw in a new wrinkle here, with a scenario that I have heard before:

Your pastor baptizes many people over the years. One day, he announces to the church that he is resigning because he had come under Holy Spirit conviction that he was not saved years ago, but had recently repented and trusted Christ as Savior and Lord. The church, of course, rejoices with him, but now must answer this question: Are all those baptisms he performed (while lost) valid or not?

And a side question to consider. Would your church keep him as pastor?

My answer to the first question is yes. And to the second question, no.

Your opinion

 

Do you have Scripture that Phillip was given authority to baptize by the local church at Jersusalem...and to those outside the church?

See, I think where we disagree is you see it as the church's responsibility to authorize who can baptize, and I see it as God's mandate to all believers via the Great Commission. I can't find where I would need to get permission from my local church to engage any aspect of the Great Commission whether it is missions, preaching or baptizing. These come from God and God alone.

 

What if the newly converted man was the minister of a liberal church? Wouldn't you want him to remain and preach the truth?

Cheers,

Jim

 

As usual your opinion is Spot On! Praise God!

 

Not a specific scripture, but I infer it because I hold that the Great Commission, and the authority to baptize, was given to the eleven. Not as apostles, but as the first church--the one established by Jesus himself.

Also, Paul, in I Cor 11, told the congregation to guard the ordinances. This is consistent with the view that the local church, not the apostles (who died) was given the commission to baptize, teach, etc.

I can understand our disagreement because we have different views of the church, and you and I start from different places.

Since I hold that water baptism is the door to the local church, I also hold that the church holds the authority to determine who its members will be, from which comes its authority to baptize. That is, the congregation has the right to guard its own doors.

 

I believe it to have been given to the church and every local church after that.

What about a saved person that has not aligned themselves with a local church? Should they be carrying out the Great Commission not being in God's will? Should a person be a member in order to witness?

You may say: What if I moved and am between churches? That is fine as you would not necesarily have relinquished membership before joining another. :jesus:

 

About the pastor, I understand where you're coming from, and there is a part of me which agrees with you. The reason I suggest not is that he is a new convert, a babe in Christ, despite his experience as a pastor. Technically he is a novice Christian, and Paul, writing to Timothy, listed one of the qualifications of a bishop (pastor) as "not a novice." (I Tim 3:6.)

 

Folks, I must apologize, for I have derailed the thread. I should have started anew thread on the lost pastor and his baptisms. I guess it's too late now, but I regret sidetracking the discussion.