Matt 7's "I never knew you" continued

Eternal salvation is not about a life-long believing in Jesus as Savior. It's a one-time event in a person's life. So yes I believe there will be people that are eternally saved, because at one point they believed in the Subtitution, but at some point later in life totally refused the "Christian" religion.

But when I talk about stop believing I am meaning stop believing in a present sense, meaning like the children in the wilderness were destroyed because of unbelief. God said the land was theirs for the taking, but they didn't believe Him.

Does that make more sense?

Thankfully no you have not done either of these in any of our conversations that I can remember. That's why I don't mind visiting with you.

This you have, because this is the line of questioning that sparked the last several posts.

I guess you could say in theory they may be the same, but a 1,000 years of condemnation is not something that I would want to go through. So yes there is a big difference between our two views. Ever thought about how long a thousand years is to be miserable, wailing and gnashing your teeth.

So in your view you go from paradise on earth to paradise in heaven and all is well and there is never anything negative that comes down your pike. Again I see this as a HUGE difference.

But your doctrine is very popular these days and there is no wonder why.

Well it may be weak in your mind but it is Scripturally very strong. And Scripture says to seek the Kingdom, so it must be worth seeking and it is certainly a better option than a 1,000 years of wailing and gnashing of teeth in outer darkness.

So at WORST I miss out on 70-plus years of pleasure in this life if I am wrong. I can live with that. that's if I live that long and if the Lord doesn't return. So if Scripture really does teach this, and I believe it does, that's not a whole lot to give up in return for being spared a 1000 years and ruling and reigning with the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Hey what do you know we actually agree on something .

I have thought a lot about these questions and I don't have an answer for you. I'm not sure what has happened and what will happen to those that have died as disobedient, unbelieving and unfaithful.

But again Scripture lays out the ground rules for running the race and so I am more concerned that I die in the right state and then I don't have to worry about what happens to the other side. Those folks should have been more concerned when the time was right .

 

Exactly. Just as the high priest acted on behalf of the people of Israel (saved people). But we must remember that the high priest was dealing with the sins of the people.

Jesus said if you don't let me wash you (partial washings that the priests went through to enter the Holy place) then we would have no part with Him.

He has to continue to wash us because we continually come in contact with sin.

If we didn't have to deal with sin any longer then there would be no need for I John 1:9.

 

Heaven is where Christ takes us at the Rapture (1Thess 4)

And that hapens at the 2nd coming.
"In My Father's house...I GO to prepare a PLACE for you...I will COME AGAIN and RECEIVE you unto Myself THAT WHERE I AM THERE you may be also"

This is the event seen in Matt 24 - and in Rev 19, and in 1Cor 15, and in 2Thess 2, and in 1Thess 4, and the resurrection of Rev 20... it is amazing that ALL the NT writers are pointing to that same singular event ... the appearing of Christ - the FIRST resurrection, our being "caught up in the air" and taken up to heaven -- to the Father's Hous... there to reign with Christ for a literal 1000 years.

Which means the made up stories about "not getting to be there for the 1000 years" are silly when it comes to saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That works IF as 1John 2:2 says "Christ is the Atoning sacrifice for our sins" at the cross and IF we accept the truth of Lev 16 regarding the entire process of ATONEMENT as GOD defines it.

But IF we simply IGNORE those texts (and most here do) then your argument above has no place to go.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Actually you have. You proved yourself wrong in your opening paragraph, but just so you can see "your" past statements here are some of them.

There is more in Post #65 that I couldn't copy and paste, because it was on a different page.

There has been no misrepresenting you. You have gone through the whole gamuet and have ended on well where is the line? And you wait like a mountain lion about to pounce on it's pray because you know no one can answer that quesiton. And so you say Ah ha because you can't answer some silly, non-fundamental, meaningless question your entire doctrine must be incorrect.

So if you know I can't answer the question why ask it? Oh wait I already said why you ask such a meaningless question.

Of course there is no absolute positive assurance, because there is no absolute positive assurance that one is going to continue to believe, continue to produce fruit or endure to the end. However John tells us in his gospel and in his first epistle that we can know that we are on the right track and headed in the right direction.

There is no absolute assurance, becuase there is no absolute guarantee that was is going to continue the process. So your argument is invalid.

No I don't think you will unfortunately because you are unbelieving concerning God's word on the matter. And for that I believe you will be held accountable. And you are certainly going to be held accountable for those souls that you turned off to the message by taking such a hard stance against it.

That's great. I wish more folks would serve out of love. But are you sure you are "serving" in the right capacity? There are going to be some that stand before the Judge on that day "thinking" they were "serving" in the right manner and they are going to be told they were workers of iniquity.

And before you ask I am still struggling through the question of what is service and what is expected of me. I don't claim to have all the answers . I know part of what is expected is to be growing in the knowledge of the Triune Godhead and I am trying to do that. I know part of serving is telling others about the kingdom. And I'm trying to do that. As for other areas I'm still working through those issues.

But we are to be motivated toward the kingdom whether positively or with the potential of negativity.

But I don't think you have the entire Truth. I think you are holding on to portions of Truth, but I think you are disagreeing with some other portions of Truth and portions that I think Scripture consider to be very important.

 

And that is the same thing as how much can I get away with. Why would you want to know where the line is if you didn't want to know how much you could get away with. That's just plain silly.

In your mind that is probably so. But that doesn't mean your argument is valid. And your argument is terribly invalid. It has NOTHING to do with whether a doctrine is true or not.

I can't believe you actually want to argue that sense a meaningless question that shouldn't even be asked can't be answered that invalidates the entire doctrine. That's just again silly.

I guess in the simplest form that is correct. But I don't teach it Scripture does!

You "see" a lot of things in Scripture that aren't there, so this is no surprise :laugh:.

Well I'm not sure if it's a torture chamber or not, but the problem with holding a wrong doctrine is not only is the doctrine wrong, but you are going to be held responsible for every person that read your postings bashing Truth and were turned away because of what you said. Surely that makes sense. So it's a lot more than just you yourself holding false doctrine.

Not sure about cigarettes. Does Scripture say that is a sin? I haven't seen it. However if you are an unrepentant speeder then yes that would be enough. We are to obey the laws of the land unless they tell us to directly violate God's Word.

Speeding is not something that we can get away with. I have a strip of road that I travel quite often that is 20mph and it is silly to have such a low speed limit right through there, but as much as it frustrates me that is to be obeyed. I must die to "self" and drive the speed limit through there. I'm sure it hacks off people behind me and if my wife is driving with me it irritates her, but the law is the law.

I used to not wear my seatbelts either, because I thought it was silly for the government to tell me I have to wear my seatbelt. You get the idea.

I don't see where wearing shorts is prohibited or where one must be a KJV only person.

I think submersion is Biblical.

As far as I can see tithing is required in the OT. We are to give with a giving heart as we are led of the Lord.

That may be "your" pov, but this doctrine is hardly hopeless. We have the "hope of glory." That's enough hope for me!!!

Well don't you think that casting out demons was equally as "good" as leading someone to the Lord?

 

Matt 10:22 butit is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND [b]IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. [/b]
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able tograft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 [b]IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY[/b]
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; [b]for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;[/b]
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
[/quote]


Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

 

Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

Peter points out that only the saints are those who are “Partakers of the Holy Spirit” having “tasted the heavenly gift” AND “the powers of the age to come”

 

Just curious, but what do you consider the "age to come" to be?

 

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

having been born again - received the gifts of the Holy Spirit -- walking by faith not by sight, redeemed and having been given the promise of eternal life -- They then fell.

As Paul says in Gal 5:4 "Fallen from Grace...Severed from Christ"

 

This question refutes the doctrine? How come we don't hear anyone vehemently rejecting the doctrine of "rewards", because you can't actually KNOW what reward you get until your time is finished.

God rewards Christians according to their work?????!!! Preposterous!!! Where is the line I must cross to have absolute assurance that I will receive a reward.????


Why is it that the only time an honest question of a "line" in our behavior comes up is when the doctrine of (severe) negative reward (for severe, unrepented-of, negative behavior.)

If it is the truth, then it matters not how terrible the doctrine is.

I know my works will be accepted when they are done in faith, perserverance, watchfulness, mercy, and hope!(1 Corinthians 3:14; Colossians 3:23; Hebrews 11:6 )

I also know if I show no fruit, that my lack of works will be rewarded. (Matt 25:24-30

If my works are evil, then my evil works will be rewarded. (2Pet 2:12, 13; Isaiah 3:11; Galatians 5:21; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:9)


What I don't know is how I will finish. Neither did Paul. (1 Cor 9:27; 2 Cor 5:9-11; Phil 3:11-15; Heb 4:11)

lacy

 

Maybe you missed the question Bob. Here it is again. Just curious, but what do you consider the "age to come" to be?

 

Steaver's irrefutable point on this thread is that

'DEPART FROM ME -- workers of iniquity I NEVER KNEW you" CAN NOT be spun around into "WELCOME blessed of My Father enter heaven - enter eternity with Me - enter bliss enter eternal life - for you are blessed with eternal life APART from knowing Christ"

No such spinning of scripture is possible - though is is NEEDED by the J Jump position.

Just stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The AGE to come is "the next life" it begins at the appearing of Christ and NO MATTER WHICH group of saints you are (if you are a kind of person that imagines TWO groups of saints then) it still begins then and there.

For "The DEAD in Christ rise first" and then "WE who are alive and remain are caught up with them" NTHER group to deal with!

in Christ,

Bob

 

So what is the "next life?" Are you equating the age to come with eternity?

 

Why the childish statements? Is it really necessary? Does it really do anything to further your cause?

Where is the line obviously has different meanings for different folks. When you ask where is the line that means I need to know where the line is so I can dance as close to it as I can without getting burned.

Maybe instead of insulting someone with your kindergarten comments, you should have clarified "your" take on the question.

Now getting to what you actually "meant" with your question it is still irrelevant. You don't need to know where the line is to get away from it. You need to know how to get closer to Jesus. When you do that the line never comes into play.

That has been the whole point the entire time no matter what the meaning of the question is whether positive or negative. It's an irrelevant question either way.

I don't know if you can or not. I'm not you. I was merely giving you an example of people that thought there works were good and were fully expecting a positive response from their Lord. And they did not receive it.

I believe the biggest hurdle you face is the fact that you don't see that we are running a race, and if you do realize that you don't realize the purpose and you don't realize there is a prize that we are to be striving for. This is what you have eluded to in your postings.

Futhermore you have been pushing an anything goes and anything is okay, becuase we're all okay in the end doctrine that is as false as they come.