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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Sep 2, 2004.
Your thoughts on this scripture, please ?
No comments ? Wow, reminds me of Jews skipping Isaiah 53.
What you have here is one of the most self-explainitory verses in the Bible. Judas, of course, was replaced.
And what is self-explanatory in these verses ? Considering the debates on Arminian/Calvinism, and the misconceptions even among the Calvinists, and the various thoughts on when, where, and by whom salvation is effected, I don't think I can agree with you that this is self-explanatory.
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The passage is in reference to the millenium when Christ will take the throne in Jerusalem and reign on earth for 1000 years.
The O.T. set up will be reinstated. Back to feasts, sacrifices, sabbaths, offerings, etc...
Does that give any light to your question?
No, Old Timer, it doesn't.
But, thank you, anyway.
Your thoughts on this scripture, please ? </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Pinyobaptist,
Do you think the following is related to this?
Do you see these words as being spoken to the Apostles or to the church?
I think I understand you believe the church is the kingdom being spoken of here, is that correct?
Then what is the regeneration? If the kingdom is the church the regeneration would be referring, imho, to those having recieved quickening, but also the gospel. Now, the statement says: ...ye which have followed me in the regeneration...
So, who is being spoken of here? I believe Israel, even if one takes the passage to be speaking of the church being the kingdom this would be the case.
Christ is speaking to Israelites who would have had no choice but to have followed him in the regeneration if this is speaking of the quickening of the elect child of God, isn't that right?
So, then the regeneration, imho, is speaking of the regeneration of Israel. It is reaching into the future to provide a view of the milennial reign of Christ, a time when the Apostles will judge Israel.
I understand you will perhaps disagree with this view I ahve presented, however it is only that we would differ in our belief regarding the kingdom and what it is.
May God Bless
Thank you for the input, Brother Dallas.
I think they are related, yes, though the recollection by each writer may have differed.
And, yes, I understand the kingdom here to be Spiritual Israel, not national or visible Israel. Call it the 'church', if you will.
I do not also think it is Israel being spoken to in both passages, but, the Apostles. Notice in Matthew it said, "ye which have followed me", and in Luke, it said: " Ye are they which have continued with me in my trials".
Israel did not follow Christ, and Israel did not continue with Him in His trials.
I believe He was speaking to His apostles, the 12, although as watchman pointed out, one, Judas, was to betray Him, and will be replaced.
Rev. 21:14 speaks of the New Jerusalem as having foundations, and on the foundations, the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.
Regarding the church, Eph. 2:19-20 further states:
Let me continue these thoughts with another post.
Shorter posts are easier to read, and to reply to.
Bro. Dallas said:
I understand from the Scriptures we have in Matthew 19:28 that the Savior is speaking of the time of the Holy Spirit and His coming task in the salvation plan for God's people.
Remember that contextually, Jesus Christ at this point is halfway to the cross. Soon His work as the Messiah, the Lamb of God will be over. He will declare the end of the work of salvation (it is finished !).
Over at John, He starts speaking of the Comforter, and its work.
Look at the sequence. The Three in One covenanted to save a people unto Himself, God writes their names in the book of Life (in Revelation, among other things, if one's name is not in the Book of Life, one is not for heaven), God creates the world and everything in it including man, man falls, God promises a redeemer, typifies and pictures this redemption throughout the Old Testament, preserves His word, and, finally, in due time, Jesus Christ is born of a woman, born under the Law, fulfills all the requirements of the Law, becomes the innocent slain for the guilty, and the work of redemption is finished.
...the work of redemption is finished .
By finished I mean finished. Nothing to be added, nothing to be taken. No more lost souls as in the sense of unredeemed, among God's sheep, all have been, positionally, in Christ, reconciled to God by the blood of His cross.
Does that mean the elect are born saved ? Not in time . All are born in enmity with God. But, in God's mind and purpose, each one of them has always been and will always be safe in Christ .
So, what is next in the process ? The Father has done His part, He bestowed mercy on whom He wished to bestow mercy, He planned their salvation, gave His Son, the Word, the Word put on human flesh, learned obedience through the things He suffered, put all His faith and trust in the Father, went up the cross, and purchased His bride with His own blood. So, whose turn is it ? The Spirit's.
Now comes THE regeneration.
His work is regeneration , the quickening of those who are elect, the bringing back of their dead spirit to spiritual life. Remember this typified in the valley of the dead bones, in Ezekiel, typified in the bringing back to life of Tabitha, and Lazarus.
His task is to quicken the elect, each one of them, wherever they are, whoever they are, and in His own sovereignly appointed time and manner independent of means and of any human agency.
The Savior speaks of the Spirit's time as the regeneration.
And so salvation is OF the Lord, from start, to finish. None of man, not an iota, not a speck within a speck of an iota does man contribute anything to the redemption of his soul.
This time the Savior referred to as the regeneration is upon us now, and will end at the last day of time, whenever the Lord wants that to be.
Which is why I do not believe in a literal, bodily, millenial reign, where both saved and unsaved, quick and the dead, live and walk together on this fallen earth.
The 1000 years is a multiple of ten 100 years which is a picture language for absolute completion, an end of a time pre-determined, when Christ ends His rule in the hearts of His people who are in time , and begins His rule with them in heaven as eternity future begins.
Just as 144,000 is not a literal number of Jews but a picture language also signifying completion of roster, all accounted for, the definite number in the Lamb's book all in the kingdom, all have been made alive.
no, the 1000 years is a picture of 365,000 days, when Christ will reign on this earth. The kingdom is likened unto the 7th day rest.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The last day is at the end of the kingdom, when we see the great white throne, death and hell dilivering up the dead in them and all being judged. Whosoever is not found written in the book of life at this time is cast into the lake of fire, and then eternity begins. We don't see much past this point, but the Kingdom is a literal 1000 years.
Thank you for your reply, James Newman. However, this thread was not intended to debate the millenial reign. It was intended to show that the work of regeneration is purely and solely that of the Spirit in a time the Savior called ' the regeneration'.
Thus showing that the preaching of the gospel is not a vehicle in which the Holy Spirit works for the regeneration of the elect, but, intended to edify and instruct those who are already regenerated and over which the apostles are ruling with Christ thru their written word, lives, and faith which serve as examples to those in the kingdom of God on earth.
Any attempt to connect the gospel to the saving work of Christ, that is to say, as some claim that the gospel saves, or as some Calvinists say, that the gospel is a vehicle for regenerating those who are elect, is an attempt to come into partnership with the great Three in One in their singular work of salvation.
Any attempt to
The Bible does not teaching us, that both believers and non-believers shall dwell together BEYOND Lord's coming & the end of the world.
Matt. 13:28-30 tell us, right now, believers and non-believers are growing together in the world. Non-believers shall not be separated from believers TILL the end of the world come. Obivously, both are growing together all the way till the last day(John 6:39,40,44, & 54) of the world at Lord's coming. Also, Matt. 13:39-42 tell us, at the END of the world/age, the angels shall take all non-believers from believers, and cast them away into the everlasting fire. Matt. 25:31-33 & 46 tell us, WHEN Christ shall come with his angels, angels will take all non-believers(goats) separate from believers(sheep), and they shall cast into everlasting punishment. Also, 2 Thess. 1:7-9 tell us, when Christ shall come with his angels, all non-believers shall be taken and cast them into the fire in the presence of the Lord and his angels also it refers in Rev. 14:9-11 too.
I was a premill before for a long time. Till 4 years ago, Matthew chapter 13, 25, John chapter 6 caused me into trouble with premill doctrine, because of these passages do not fit with premill doctrine. That why I decide follow what the Bible saying instead of what men saying - Col. 2:8.
Also, myself was pretrib before. 2 Thess 2:1-3; & Matt 24:29-31 caused me to left pretrib camp, because of these do not fit with pretrib doctrine.
Right now, I am posttrib & amill.
But, not necesscary being to saying the named of the position what I believe, these do nothign with salvation. But, that is what I believe according to the Bible, what it teaches.
I agree. The book of Revelation have lot of symbolic meanings, many of these things are not literal. I am not saying that I do not believe in literal things according to any verses in the Bible, depend on what the grammar of the verse is talking about.
Pretrib teaches, all 144,000 are Jewish males, they will be evangelists to preach gospel over the world to Gentiles, many shall be saved during great tribulation after rapture. But, not what Revelation chapter 7 & 14 actually talk about.
Revelation chapter 14 explains more clear about the identify of 144,000, who they are. In Rev. 14:1 mentioned of 144,000. Notice verse 3 in the context of verse one, it says, "And they(144,000) sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders(created beings, more likely angelics): and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH." 144,000 represents those who are redeemed from the earth, it means they shall be delivered (rapture or gathering) from the world.
Look next verse 4 explains much more clear about the identify of 144,000. It says, "These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are VIRGINS. These are they which FOLLOW THE LAMB whithersoever he(Lamb) goeth. These WERE REDEEMED FROM AMONG MEN, being the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb."
Pretrib teaches all 144,000 Jewish males shall not sex with woman, they shall be virgin for during great tribulation period. They take verse into literally.
Again, remember book of Revelation have lot of symbolic meanings and spiritual meanings to apply the literal meanings.
'Virgins' do not always mean never have sex with a lady or man. It represents to keep our live pure and holy, separate from the world.
'Women' of Rev. 14:4 does not mean, they are literal ladies. 'Women' represents of harlots of the world. 'Virgins' & 'women' of Rev. 14:4 is more describe find in Revelation 17:5, also chapter 18. Notice, Rev. 17:5 says, 'harlots' is same as picture of 'women' of Rev. 14:4. Rev. 18:4 warns us, and it commands us, that we must separate from the evil things of the world. Right now, many Christians are already compromising with the world. That means they are not 'virgins'.
Rev. 14:4 tells us, these who are follow the Lord, they are called, 'the firstfruits' according to 1 Cor. 15:23. Rev. 14:4 tells us, they are redeemed from among men. It means, they shall be separated from the unbelievers as it is the picture of rapture.
The context of Revelation chapter 7 & 14 describe the picture of the harvest(rapture), that the believers shall be delivered from the world.
Rev. 14:14-20 describe about the harvest & judgement of the world at Christ's coming.
Yes, you are correct, 144,000 is not a literal number, but it is a picture of completion number or perfect numbers, as they are sealed by the Holy Spirit according to Eph. 1:13.
Also, we are spiritual Israel according to Romans chapter 11 & 1 Peter 2:9.
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Forgive me for pulling this thread off your intended topic. But, I answered what I honestly beleive.
That aside, let me ask a question based upon the following statement you made in another post:
Here is the context of scripture your statement is referring to:
Notice the words I have placed in BOLD letters.
What do you mean by your statement?
Do you mean to support by this scripture immediate spiritual regeneration?
Do you limit this "time the Savior called 'the regeneration'"?
If you do limit it, do you limit it to Israel, to the close of NT revelation? or is it still current at present?
May God Bless
BTW, I posted this on another board, and I don't think it arrived, or if so, no one has touched it yet.
is the following scripture related to this?
[ September 03, 2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]
Dear Brother Dallas:
I plead no contest to the fact that, in this particular Scripture, Matthew 19:28, the Savior, Jesus Christ, was addressing the 12 apostles, considering that at the end of His statement He told them they will be seated on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
Apparently, the 12 tribes of Israel, refer to spiritual Israel, the church made up of every true elect child of God, and is the true kingdom of God.
What I am supporting with this Scripture is Spiritual regeneration of the elect as opposed to Gospel preaching regeneration.
That Salvation is a work planned and executed by God and God alone, and has three stages: the planning (by the Father), the execution of the plan (by the Son), and the finalization of the plan (by the Spirit quickening those who have been elected to glory by the Father, and redeemed to glory by the Son).
Do I limit this time the Savior called 'the regeneration' ? in the sense of limiting its duration ? No more than any man has the right to name a day and date of the Savior's return.
The time the Savior called 'the regeneration' is upon us now, the regeneration of every elect child of God is being done by the Spirit, and it is not limited to national Israel or to the Gentile only, but covers both Jew and Gentile.
Dear Brother Pinyobaptist, Please See my comments below, inside the quote following your statements. Inside ().
May God Bless
I think the regeneration he is referring to here is the resurrection, the literal resurrection that occurs when Christ returns to set up His kingdom and gives crowns to the saints and they reign with Him. Why does everything in the Bible have to be 'spiritualized' and made to be symbolic of something else? We are made new creatures when we become believers, and we are to put in the new man daily, and die to ourselves. We are, in a sense, in the Kingdom of God spiritually, but only through faith. This kingdom is going to be set up literally on this earth very soon, and we are supposed to be watching and praying for our Lord's return.
Thank you James.
Their sitting on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, means that they will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
No, the regeneration referred to here for purpose of this thread is the literal quickening of the individual who is previously dead in trespasses and sins. It may be that Brother Pinyobaptist would agree, or believe this is the first resurrection from the dead.
For purposes of his post and the discussion he is showing immediate spiritual regeneration [quickening] of those elect children of God born naturally dead in trespasses and sins.
I answered him how I understood the passage and that moved the discussion from the immediate regeneration of individuals to that of the future est. of the literal reign of Christ from Jerusalem.