Matthew 24, 25 - Not to Christians??

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by James_Newman, Nov 9, 2006.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    I have recently been informed that the Lord's words in Matthew 24 and 25 are not for Christians. Jesus was plainly teaching His disciples. By what theological device do we remove these teachings from ourselves today?

    Matthew 24:3-4
    3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
     
  2. GordonSlocum

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    Can you explain more about what they said?
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    Gordon,

    What I said was on another board. I said that Matthew 24 is speaking of the Judgment of the Jews and 25 is speaking of the Judgment of the Nations. The church has already been raptured out at this point.
     
  4. Not_hard_to_find

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    By whom and what authority?

    Yes, Christ drew His disciples to Him and taught them -- are we not disciples? Are we not drawn apart from the world?
     
  5. James_Newman

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    Yes, I do believe it was you. Who was He talking to when He said this?

    Matthew 24:9
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

    When you read it, do you pronounce it like this?
    'Then shall they deliver jew up to be afflicted, and shall kill jew:'
     
  6. standingfirminChrist

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    James,

    In that verse, Jesus said, 'And ye shall...'

    The key word is 'ye'. A plural word. He was speaking of Israel as a whole, not just the 12 disciples.

    If He was speaking of the 12 disciples only, then that would mean the rapture has already taken place and the devil has been destroyed, sin is no more, etc.

    No, he was speaking of the Jews. The end times he was telling the disciples of will not affect the church because the church is gone at this point.
     
  7. James_Newman

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    You assume way too much SFIC. What verses do you use to prove an unconditional pre-trib rapture?
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    1 Thes 4, 1 Cor. 15, John 14. just to name a few.
     
  9. GordonSlocum

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    3. As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,

    "Tell us, when will these things happen,

    Does not even address the first question



    and what {will be} the sign of Your coming,
    and of the end of the age?

    Tribulation for these veres

    I hold that the verses to follow deal with the great tribulation.


    Chapter 25 ?? Could it be the rapture? not sure.
     
  10. James_Newman

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    So you have entire chapters that prove the unconditional pre-trib rapture? Maybe I can do the work for you.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    I don't see anything there about time.

    1 Corinthians 15:52
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    The last trump?

    And I gotta be honest, I don't know what your referring to in John 14.
     
  11. Tom Butler

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    I looked at I Thess 4:13 ff and found nothing which sets the time of the rapture. I also looked at John 14. Didn't find anything there, either. I'm not a dispy, but even if I were, those two passages wouldn't help to set the time of the rapture. Must have missed something. Surely it's there, or dispys wouldn't use them as proof texts.
     
  12. standingfirminChrist

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    HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
     
  13. Tom Butler

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    SFIC, I'm not arguing against the rapture. The discussion is about the time of the rapture. In this thread, I'm not even arguing against a pre-trib rapture. The passage above does not tell us the time. And it is subject to more than one interpretation. I know you hold that the wrath in I Thess 5:9 refers to that which is to be released during the tribulation. But it can just as easily be interpreted as referring to something else.

    What I'm looking for is a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation verse or passage that teaches a pre-trib rapture.
     
  14. James_Newman

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    I would say that all that verse really says is that wrath is not God's ultimate will for us. Whether that be wrath in the tribulation, or wrath at the judgment seat of Christ, we can change our appointment by our actions. Judas had an appointment.

    Luke 22:29-30
    29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
    30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
     
  15. J. Jump

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    I think these are passages that have dual messages. There is a message to Christians and then there is a message to Jews that become believers during this time.

    As for a pre-tribulational rapture you can see it in OT type in that Elijah was removed after the blood, but before the flood.

    You can see this in Revelation as well. And you can see that the rapture is not a partial rapture, but a rapture of the entire body of believers faithful for unfaithful in Revelation one, becuase Christ is seen as the judge standing in the midst of the seven churches, which is a picture of completeness.
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

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    Dual messages? That's your own logical. There is no dual message in Matthew 24 and 25. Both chapters are apply to us as followers, both Jew and Gentile. Also, Christ doesn't saying anything of two phases of the second advent in that context. Chrust tells us, that He is coming again after the tribulation at ONCE.

    Throughout Matthew 24 and 25 mentioned of conditional with warning so much ovwerwhelmed that, no way for you to neglect Christ's warning. These are apply to us. Christ said, 'ye', 'you', 'thee', thou' find about 19 times in Matthew chapter 24. It always apply toward us as individual.

    Matt. 24:48-51 warning us, if we criticize against Christians, back to world again, and not watch for Christ's coming, we shall be shocked and not aware of his coming, shall be cast into outer darkness join with hyprocrite people. Matt. 25:1-12 warning us, if we do not walk in the light, remain in the dark(sin life), by the time Lord comes, we shall lose the chance of opporunity to enter the door(salvation). Matt. 25:13-30 warn us, if we do not use our talent, mean do not serve the Lord, then we might be cast away into the outer darkness - everlasting punishment separate from God.

    Matt 25:31-46 warn us, if we do not care people like, to hospitalize one other, not witness them, shall be cast away into everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41, 46).

    Both Matthew 24 and 25 are very clear apply to us as we are servants of God.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  17. J. Jump

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    DPT there you have shown enough of a lack of understanding that one should not believe what you have to say :) If these chapters apply only to believers then it wouldn't apply to Jew and Gentile, because there is no more Jew and Gentile for believers. We are neither Jew nor Greek. We are part of the one new man in Christ.

    Says you, but there are a number of passages that have dual messages and that is not some off the wall claim, but there are a number of Biblical "experts" that understand this.

    The OT has a great many of these. There was a particular message to the Jews and then there is a message to believers today.
     
  18. James_Newman

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    I think you're referring to Enoch? But then there is also the picture of Noah who went through the flood. I certainly believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I can't find anywhere that teaches an unconditional pre-trib rapture. I can show several that would seem to support a conditional rapture, though.

    Luke 21:36
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Accounted worthy is the condition upon which the escaping is based. Escape all what things? He is talking about the tribulation. So here is a plain as day pre-trib rapture verse, but we can't use that one to prove the pre-trib rapture because it is a conditional verse. If there are other verses that show a pre-trib rapture, I'd love to see them. Otherwise, using the rapture as an excuse for ignoring the Lord's sermon on the mount seems a little contrived.
     
  19. GordonSlocum

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    I think I would agree with you. These verses 31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

    The son is coming - not already here. In the pre-trib / Pre-mil position this would have to be following the 70th week of Daniel / the end of the tribulation. Jesus sits on His throne and from there judges the nations.

    Now in Matthew 24: 40. "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.

    This two is at the second coming. Here I believe the one taken and one left is the judgment being spoken of in 25. One taken / one left. The one taken is sent to Hell and the one left enters the Millennial kingdom.

    Only saved will enter the 1000 year kingdom. In a sense there is a rapture to Hell for the lost.

    Tongue and cheek - two raptures - one to be with Jesus and 7 years later one to be with Satan.

    Resurrections (some suggest following the resurrection of Christ that those who came out of the grave were taken to heaven), (the rapture of the Church) and the (resurrection of tribulation and old testament saints) and the church coming with Christ to rule for 1000 years.

    Where do you think you will be ruling on this earth then?

    You may be in charge of clean up following the massive death of 4/5 of all the population. What is it 7 months to burry the dead and cleanse the land after the tribulation. That is a lot of cleaning.

    You might be over the shipping industry. Will you fly by jet from one location to the other or will you just will yourself there and you are there? One day you are in Jerusalem bowing before Jesus, singing, worshipping and praising Him and the next you are in “who knows where” dealing with international trade problems. You are called to make sure the parties are acting correctly. Food for though.

    What if you are over the PGA or the NFL or perhaps some kind of great event and you are the ruler. There you are in your new body, like Christ, and someone violates something, you are going to administer your duties in that matter.

    That is fascinating.

    Gordon
     
    #19 GordonSlocum, Nov 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2006
  20. J. Jump

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    Yes. Thank you for correcting my error! I was having a senior moment at 33 :)

    What do you do with Revelation 1 then? Christ is seen as the judge standing in the midst of the seven churches. A picture of completeness.

    The judgment seat of Christ is a separation of the faithful from the unfaithful. It is a separation of the obedient from the disobedient. It is a separate of the overcomers from the non-overcomers. A separation of the wheat from the tares.

    But if the unfaithful, disobedient, non-overcomers aren't present at the judgment seat then how can they be separated? The rapture isn't the judgment itself, but happens after the rapture.
     

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