Matthew 5:17-19 Keeping the Torah

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by HankD, Sep 8, 2015.

  1. HankD

    HankD
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    [FONT=&quot]Recently there has been an increase of messianic Christianity (at least in my area of Washington) and some of the messianics involved with the “Hebrew Roots” (HR) of Christianity movement are teaching that the Torah (The law of Moses in the first 5 books of the Bible) is still to be kept along with the Sabbath and the dietary laws.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I am a gentile of Italian extraction however my maternal side is Jewish of Prussian extraction. They came to America in 1890-1897 and therefore missed the holocaust by almost a half-century. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]There was only a mention or so of my grandmothers Jewishness as I was g[FONT=&quot]rowing up[FONT=&quot], she died young and I hardly knew her at all [FONT=&quot]so,[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] I knew nothing of the practice of Judaism as my maternal grandmother allowed my mother to be baptized a Catholic Christian at my maternal grandfather’s insistence. My knowledge of Talmudic Judaism is very limited.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]The foundational premise of these messianics is based upon the following Scripture:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Matthew 5:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]The one very large challenge is that according to Judaism itself (Talmudic Judaism) there are 613 “Mitzvouth” “commandments” in the Law of Moses (Torah) of which approximately 270 of them cannot be kept as there is no temple in Jerusalem and no Levitical priest to carry out the ordinance’s. I have my own conviction but what do others think about our responsibility to the “Torah” as born again believers in Jesus Christ?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]I suppose a lot depends upon the exposition of the above scripture in the context of Jesus followers being a witness in and to the world via our post salvation good works.

    [FONT=&quot]HankD[/FONT]
    [/FONT]
     
  2. HankD

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    [FONT=&quot]A notable point is that this passage concerns both the Law and the Prophets. [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]Then He separates the Law from the prophets[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Another notable thing in this passage is that Jesus does not condemn those who break these least commandments and teach others but says that they will be “least” in the kingdom of heaven.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Now I believe that the two possibilities “heaven and earth passing away” and “till all is fulfilled” are mutually exclusive, one or the other must happen for the law to pass away.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Fulfilment speaks of a completion of the purpose of the law.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Which was:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:22 …[/FONT][FONT=&quot] the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Did Jesus fulfill the law?[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Yes most assuredly:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Acts 13[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 30 But God raised him from the dead:[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]HankD[/FONT]
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

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  4. wpe3bql

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    You may already know this, but there is a website that gives a lot of information about what it calls "Messianic Judaism."

    The website is: www.shema.com

    The site is sponsored by Congregation Shema Yisrael located in Bloomfield Hills MI, a suburb of Minneapolis-St. Paul.

    Their e-mail address is [email protected]

    Not being that much acquainted with Messianic Judaism myself, I googled "Messianic Judaism" which brought me to the Congregation Shema Yisrael's website.

    I didn't even know that the word Shema is Hebrew for "hear" which was taken from the Hebrew OT as being the first word in the passage beginning with Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:" This passage is repeated by Jesus in Mark 12:29-31.

    At any rate, there's a wealth of information on their website.
     
    #4 wpe3bql, Sep 8, 2015
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  5. HankD

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  6. HankD

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    Thanks.

    My concern is for very cult like groups such as 119 Ministries affiliated with the Hebraic (or Hebrew) Roots (HR) movement. which strangely admit to the deity of Christ (they say "divinity of Christ) yet deny the Trinity.

    I'll look at the Shema site however.
    .
    Thanks again.
     
  7. kyredneck

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    All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt 7:12

    Crystalizes the Torah, don't you think? Paul simplifies it like this:

    8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

    ...and even then the 'condensed version' had been taught by some of the Rabbis:

    “…Rabbinism is never weary of quoting as one of the characteristic sayings of its greatest teacher, Hillel (who, of course, lived before this time), that he had summed up the Law, in briefest compass, in these words: ‘What is hateful to thee, that do not to another. This is the whole Law; the rest is only its explanation…..” Life & Times - Edersheim
     
    #7 kyredneck, Sep 8, 2015
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  8. wpe3bql

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    You'll find an interesting part of their main website entitled "How Do You Know Yeshua Is The Messiah?"

    This part gives at least eight very important points that proves that Jesus of Nazareth was the only person who could possibly been the fulfillment of all of the OT messianic prophecies.

    As the website itself states: "Yeshua's resurrection makes Him absolutely unique in the history of the word and puts Him on a level far higher than any of the prophets of Israel or any other religion or any philosopher that ever lived.....There is only one rational conclusion--Yeshua is the Messiah of Israel whom the prophets told us to expect."
     
  9. HankD

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    I found from their website that they are unequivocally Trinitarian and will not fellowship with those groups who deny either the deity of Christ or the traditional doctrine of the Trinity.

    HankD
     
  10. HankD

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    Of course, Hebrews as well

    Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    HankD
     
  11. JamesL

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    Jesus fulfilled the Law , then abolished it.

    2Cor 3 tells us that once the Spirit was given, the written Law became obsolete.

    Hebrews 7-10 contrasts the animals vs. Christ, the High Priest vs. Christ, the covering of sin vs. the removal of sin, etc.

    1Timothy 1:8-10 says plainly that the Law is not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous

    The Law as a schoolmaster bringing "us" to Christ is not speaking about conversion. Paul was talking pre-cross believers vs. post-cross believers - fellowship with God through the Spirit.

    Before the cross, believers observed the Law. After the cross, we follow the Spirit
     
  12. HankD

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    [FONT=&quot]NT dietary guidelines: All food is clean and edible (if you can stomach it).
    [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Mark 7[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also?
    Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 19 "because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Acts 10[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 10 Then he (Peter) became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Some folk say that Peter’s vision was not about food but was to let him know that Gentiles were now to be recipients of the Gospel because Peter said “But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.” However it was about food because 1) Peter got hungry 2) Jesus sent a vision of all manner of creatures and said , "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." Concerning the creatures He was shown, Peter doubted because of the Torah dietary restrictions.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Does anyone believe that Jesus meant that Peter should rise up kill and eat the Gentiles? Of course not. It was both about food and the Gentiles food which had now been judiciously cleansed by Jesus to facilitate and expedite the Great [FONT=&quot]C[/FONT]ommission.[/FONT]

    HankD
     
  13. HankD

    HankD
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    Self explanatory:

    [FONT=&quot]Acts 15[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]8 "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 10 "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot] 12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]…[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot] 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:[/FONT]

    HankD
     
  14. Aaron

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    I recommend Arthur W Pink's commentary on the verses you cited in An Exposition of the Sermon on the Mount.
     
  15. HankD

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    I really like Pink (what I have read of his work) but I don't have the exposition of the sermon on the mount. I'll check online.

    Thanks.
    HankD
     
  16. kyredneck

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    When did Heaven and Earth pass Away?

    "....oh, along 'bout the same time this happened:

    And I will break the pride of your power: and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass; Lev 26:19

    And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Dt 28:23"

    We're new creatures under the new heaven and new earth of the new covenant. The ministration of condemnation and death has been done away with.

    having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:15
     
  17. HankD

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    Hi Aaron,

    I found Pink’s exposition of the Sermon on the Mount online and yes Pink gives a good warning against antinomianism.
    This is why I prefer to say that Christ “fulfilled” the Law rather than abolished it because it did have its purposes and still does IMO.

    As I said in the opening post, the challenge/dilemma is that of the 613 precepts (Heb – mitzvoth) of the Law of Moses, there are about 270 (according to Judaism itself) that are impossible to keep because 1) You must live in the land to keep them, 2) The two things which occurred in AD70 a) There is no temple in Jerusalem and b) there is no Levitical priesthood to do the necessary ordinances.

    That along with Paul’s admonition: Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

    And James:
    James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

    Then there are those scriptures which have been presented. e.g.Acts 10, Acts 15 and the bearing they have upon the issues above.

    Some messianics I have dealt with say (and publish) that we should be imitators of Christ in that He kept the Torah perfectly and the apostles did try as well, so should we attempt to do so. However we do not live in the land of Israel (the land of promise) there is no Temple or Levitical priesthood as has been previously stated, so it is impossible for us to walk as He/they walked before AD70.

    While they have admitted to me that this fact is true, this fact never makes it into their publications and I am told privately that we are to the best we can. And indeed I agreed with them and said OK, go ahead keep them all and see how you do.

    Personally and IMO these are of the same mind set as those Pharisees of Acts 15 that insisted upon circumcision and the keeping of the Law of Moses.

    I Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    Otherwise we are on “the horns of a dilemma” because of Matthew 5 :17-22 unless of course as Jesus says it has indeed been fulfilled by none other than Himself..



    HankD
     
  18. JamesL

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    These Messianics sound like 7th-Day Adventists

    For that matter, many Baptists are trying to keep all of them, too - even trying to turn Sunday into a Sabbath
     
  19. wpe3bql

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    Kinda sounds like a lot of IFB ultra-separatist groups I've known of in the past. :smilewinkgrin:

    I once heard of an IFB church that was so dead set against the SBC that, if a member of that IFB church left it to join an SBC church, that IFB church would automatically expel that person on the grounds of "heresy"!
     
  20. HankD

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    Sounds like Judges 12:6

    Judges 12:6 Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.


    HankD
     

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