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Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Comrade, Aug 23, 2004.

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  1. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    When I look at which version of the Bible to read I figured that it would be best to go to the original manuscripts from what the versions were translated from. All of the modern versions come from one version of translation and the KJV comes from another. Let's examine the two manuscripts.

    The first I will speak of will be the KJV. I can back this up historically but it will take a couple days for me to get the actual references. Anyways the there are no "original" Greek manuscripts left. They were used so much that the originals were destroyed. And since they had no printing presses they could not reproduce them without hand writing them. The original Greek churches used the Textus Receptus (Recieved Text) It was called that because the churches Paul and the other apostles started all used that text.

    Because there were not many copies people memorized large portions of the New Testament and when someone misquoted it they were told they did. In fact there have been found 5,000 pieces of the original Greek New Testament found (Whether that be a verse, a chapter, a book or several books) And all of these manuscripts agree 95-98% of the time.

    Now around 400 A.D. or so a guy by the name of Origen (In alexandria, Egypt) Changed alot of things in the New Testament and because of this the original Greek churches excommunicated him for that.

    Well for a little while those documents lay dormant, but when Constantine was Christianizing the Roman Empire he needed a Bible and it just so happened that they found the work of Origin.

    Well, the Greek churches rejected it and the other ROman churches used it. Well it never got used and so it again lay dormant.

    That is when Westcott and Horte found it. One of these Alexandrian Textes was found in the Vatican and the other in a wastebasket in a monastery. This is when they translated their New Greek Text from which has been translated into English by different translators but all in all the line goes back to a guy named Origin who was rejected by the original Greek churches because he tried to change the New Testament.

    If I have 5 one dollar bills and only one is real then the rest our counterfeit. Right? I'd have to look back where the others were originally made to see which one is real.
     
    #1 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  2. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    PS I made a typo it's Manuscripts.
     
    #2 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  3. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    This post belongs in a wastebasket.

    "The original Greek churches used the Textus Receptus (Recieved Text) It was called that because the churches Paul and the other apostles started all used that text. "

    "That is when Westcott and Horte found it. "

    Sure is a piece of scholarship there.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
    #3 Trotter, Aug 23, 2004
  4. natters

    natters New Member

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    Then why do many Alexandrian readings and manuscripts predate Origen?
     
    #4 natters, Aug 23, 2004
  5. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    I'm not a scholar. I am interested in history. If you want to know a scholar look at the KJV translators each one probably spoke at least a dozen languages fluently and were by today's standards Geniuses. I never claimed to be a scholar. Do so research through historical writings.
     
    #5 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  6. Cix

    Cix New Member

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    KJVO #2 "I BELIEVE THE UNDERLYING GREEK/HEBREW TEXT OF THE KJV IS BEST"

    This group believes that the MT (Majority Text) or the TR (Textus Receptus) -- even though there are obvious differences in the two -- are "superior" to all other Greek documents and more closely reflect the original autographs. They do not believe that the TR or the Majority Text is perfect in any one printed copy. They believe that the King James Version, based on this text, is the clearest and most accurate translation that we have in English today.
     
    #6 Cix, Aug 23, 2004
  7. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    Because they were originally found in perfect condition. They were never used. one was in a monastery and the other on a shelve in the vatican. If you actually look at the Syrian and Arimaec (forgot how to spell that) they actually predate the Alexandrian.
     
    #7 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  8. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    By the way I misread that I haven't seen that information. Let me research that and please tell me where you got your info.
     
    #8 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  9. natters

    natters New Member

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    No, you said Origen was responsible for the the changes in the Alexandrian manuscripts. How can that be, if many of them were made before Origen was born?

    Yes, I have looked at the Syrian and Aramaic as well, in quite some detail. They are split, often agreeing with Alexandrian readings instead of "received text" readings. I can provide several examples if you would like.
     
    #9 natters, Aug 23, 2004
  10. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    Well let's look at this: There are about 250-300 manuscripts from which they get The New Greek Text and they all disagree at least 50% of the time.
     
    #10 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  11. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    natters
    I never said he changed the Alexandrian text. He made the Alexandrian text (He was in Alexandria Egypt) And I would like Examples.
     
    #11 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  12. Comrade

    Comrade New Member

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    Again Give me a couple of days and I'll see what I can find.
     
    #12 Comrade, Aug 23, 2004
  13. natters

    natters New Member

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    OK, let me rephrase. How could Origen make the Alexandrian text if many of the Alexandrian manuscripts were made before he was born?

    As for examples of "Alexandrian" readings from the Syrian/Aramaic:

    Psalm 143:15 has the longer ending
    Matt 27:35 has the shorter ending
    Mark 1:2 says "Isaiah the prophet"
    John 1:18 says "only begotten God"
    John 7:53-8:11 is not present
    Acts 4:25 has "the Holy Spirit"
    1 John 5:7 is not present
    Jude 1:25 has "through Jesus Christ our Lord"

    There are others, but I don't have all of my reference material with me right now.
     
    #13 natters, Aug 23, 2004
  14. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    Comrade, my brother, you have been duped by a huckster if you think what you posted accurately reflects history.

    For one thing, the text of the KJV was not called the "textus receptus" until the 1620's when the Eliezer brothers used that line as a sales promo. The Byzantine text that the TR is mostly taken from (although some portions come from the RCC's Latin Vulgate) constitutes over 90% of the existing mss but less than half of the mss from prior to about 600-700 AD.

    In other words, the "majority" of the oldest mss are Alexandrian, not Byzantine.
     
    #14 Scott J, Aug 23, 2004
  15. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Comrade said:

    I'm not a scholar.

    (necessary disclaimer to keep the KJV-only sharks away)

    I am interested in history.

    Historical fiction, perhaps.
     
    #15 Ransom, Aug 23, 2004
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