Maybe this will clear up the "Sovereignty" issue

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Feb 15, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    Hey all,

    There's alot of back and forthing on whether God is sovereign if man has free will. Can we think about this for a minute -- God is sovereign over the outcomes of our choices. He allows us, like He Himself, to make decisions but He NEVER lets us escape the consequences of not doing His will -- or of doing it! :thumbs:

    Thus, He is IN CONTROL of everything that happens, don't ya see, WITHOUT being the "Puppetmaster!"

    skypair
     
  2. Jkdbuck76

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    You did a good job. I also like Walter Martin's explanation using a supercomputer.
     
  3. skypair

    skypair
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    Thanks, jd. I'll look into that. :thumbs:

    skypair
     
  4. PASTOR MHG

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    Excellent post skypair! Good thoughts!

    Max
     
  5. J.D.

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    How is He in control of everything if he is only in control of the outcomes?
     
  6. npetreley

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    Here's an example. I freely decided to make myself a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on white, but God had decided that the outcome of my effort would be a roast beef with mayo on rye. It caught me by surprise, and I was going to write a letter to Jiff and Welches until I read that post, which explained everything.
     
  7. MB

    MB
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    Hi Npetreley
    I know maybe the peanut butter and Jelly just looks smells and taste like roast beef. After all God can do anything he wants to. Wow!!! That would blow all those vegetarians away wouldn't it?:laugh: Don't you just hate it when they tell you meat isn't good for you. God made meat for man to eat but don't trust God he doesn't know what good for you. Scientist they aren't as smart as they'd like us to think are they?
    MB
     
  8. AAA

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    I ment no offence 2 u......

    Very well..........
     
  9. skypair

    skypair
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    J.D. -- because you only think you will get your way if you do contrary to what God commands. You can "choose your own poison" (say Calvinism for the purposes of this discussion) but you won't get away with it -- you won't get your way. God will get His way.

    Think about this, though -- if you obey God's will by choosing Him, then your will AND His will are promised to you! But if you don't obey God (re: Pharoah), God "hardens" your heart with calamity hoping that you will see the Light, right? And His will that noene perish and all come to repentance is in tact, too!

    Now who was sovereign, J.D.? God or man?

    skypair
     
    #9 skypair, Feb 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2007
  10. AAA

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    Plus it says in the word of GOD concerning our choice....

    "Chose this day who you will serve"...."As for as me and my household we will serve the Lord"...

    Does our choice nullify God's sovereignty? NO...

    Because if God is not happy with what we plan to do, then HE can stop it. Just like He did when the people had plans to kill Jesus and the became froze and Our Lord and saviour just walked through the group.....
     
  11. J.D.

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    Is there any scripture that says God hardened Pharoah's heart in hopes that he would see the light? How does hardening relieve blindness?
     
  12. J.D.

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    It says nothing about my choice or your choice or our choice.
    And what choice did Israel make? Keep reading.

    Why did Joshua bring the good report along with Caleb? Why did Joshua remain faithful to the Lord? Answer: Numbers 27:18 (KJV) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;"

    Not only do we agree on this, but you should go a step further because the truth is that our choices validate God's sovereignty.

    I agree. He can even stop us from going to hell even though we are rebellious sinners.

    Yes, and He also stoped them when they would have made Him a king. And He didn't stop them when they nailed Him to a cross even though he could have. So God was in control of their behavior either way, wasn't He? Which shows that He controls the outcome by controlling the means which in this case are the actions of the people.
     
    #12 J.D., Feb 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2007
  13. AAA

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    It says nothing about my choice or your choice or our choice.

    They did make a chioce as you agree....

    And what choice did Israel make? Keep reading.

    You see the word choice in your sentence?

    Why did Joshua bring the good report along with Caleb? Why did Joshua remain faithful to the Lord? Answer: Numbers 27:18 (KJV) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;"

    But this does NOT make him soveriegn over his own choices, God is the ONLY one that is Sovereign. Rather you like it or not, HE is sovereign over your choices also...

    Not only do we agree on this, but you should go a step further because the truth is that our choices validate God's sovereignty.

    No, That's just like saying: before GOD can exist SOMEONE HAS TO BELIEVE IN him, and you see that is impossible.

    God does NOT need our "choices" to validate HIS sovereignty. Because HE is the SAME yesteraday, today, and forever. He has already validated HIMSELF and all that HE is. He does not need your "choice" (approval or disapproval) to validate HIS sovereignty.


    I agree. He can even stop us from going to hell even though we are rebellious sinners.

    OK...But only if GOD draws the sinner. Only if GOD cleanses the sinner by the blood of HIS SON. Only if GOD convicts the sinner by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    So, you see God can save sinners, but it ALL HIM that does the saving, not because you try to elect your self by doing good works, because, if GOD does not save (elect) you, then you will be forever lost. Here it is, plain and simple: God saves by GRACE apart from your good works...Please read: Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 and the whole books of ROMANS and Galation.


    Yes, and He also stoped them when they would have made Him a king. And He didn't stop them when they nailed Him to a cross even though he could have.

    Do you know why God stopped them, it was because JESUS Christ was already the KING of kings and the LORD of lords. No one had to make JESUS to be a king, because HE was already the greatest KING.

    Just because they nailed HIM to the cross does not mean they were sovereign over HIM, but HE predetermined that He would die on the CROSS for the saving of the "elect". He was in total control


    So God was in control of their behavior either way, wasn't He?

    That's a classic case of a Free willer asking a good question...Of coarse God is in control. All the earth and the fulness there-of id the LORD's...If He own everything, does not mean HE can do with it as HE wishes, beacause HE is a SOVEREIGN GOD!

    Which shows that He controls the outcome by controlling the means which in this case are the actions of the people.

    He does cotrol the outcome...

    The means that HE controls the people is NOT thier actions, beause that would make the actions of the people and the people themselves sovereign, and NOT GOD. The means (or the agent/being) that GOD uses is HIMSELF, because He is sovereign....

    I know that this hard for some people to take, but "Salvation is by GRACE, not of yourself" (Eph. 2:8-9). What work can you do to save yourself? NOTHING..


    :godisgood:
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    Why in the world, do some of you have such a low view of God?

    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Let me ask you. Who did God ask, to see if He could make the world?
    Why do we have bright stars and stars that are not so bright?
    Was God fair to the rat to make him so small and hated by nearly every one and yet make a horse so big and strong and fast and loved by many?
    Was God right in making some angels that stand right before the throne of God, never to leave, and other angels that go here and there?

    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Who did God ask if he could make light?
    Who told God He could make the whole world flood?
    Who did God ask, to see if it was ok to make all the snow fall in new england last week?
    What right does God have to make it cold in NY in the winter and hot in the summer?

    Can God do as He pleases? Is He not God?

    Why was Christ born in a small town and not a big city? Would not more people hear about the good news if he was born in Rome? Why did the young men keeping sheep hear from heaven about the new king, and why did people praying and looking for his coming miss it? Why did not God send a angel to tell the Pharisees and Sadducees?
    Why did God pass over davids brothers only to pick david?

    Can God do as He wishes?

    Who does God ask what next man will be king? Or does just God place who He wills on the throne?
    Why did God pick Paul and not tommy lee? Do you think tommy lee would have believed if God had a talk with Tommy from heaven and blinded him as God did Paul?
    Why did Christ pick Peter and Mark, and not pick Joe Joe white, and Bob the builder to follow Him?

    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Did God ask the NBA players how tall they would like to be?
    Did God ask the NFL players how fast they would like to be?
    Did God ask the singer if they would like a good voice?

    Is it fair of God that some people are so pretty and others are not?
    Was God fair to make some with dark skin and others with pale?
    Was God right to make some as teachers and others that can not learn?


    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    Who was the 1st to give you a Bible? Why did they give it to you?
    Does God have the power to change the heart of Man? If so, why does he not always do so? He God can not, or will not change the heart of man for God will never over power mans "free will" to choose, then why do we pray?
    Who made it so that you heard the gospel?
    If you are now saved, do you feel like you are just smarter then those that are lost? Do only smart people get saved?
    Did God let you pick you father and mother?
    Did God let you pick the nation to be born in?
    How about the state and city?
    Who started the church down the street from where you were born?
    Who made sure that the gospel was heard by you?


    Just how little is your God?

    My God is big...

     
  15. npetreley

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    Erasmus suggested the same thing, and Luther ripped him a new one in his Bondage of the Will. I'd quote Bondage of the Will, but there's no small section that sums it all up.
     
  16. skypair

    skypair
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    J.D., etal.

    This looks like the easiest objection to handle on this bright and cheerful morning. :godisgood:

    You know the potter and the clay? What is it that continues to manipulate the clay? God, right? HOW? If we disobey Him, His "laws of outcomes" or His direct intervention go into effect. Know what? That makes proud people "pig-headed" -- stubborn, "hardened" -- doesn't it? Who hardened Pharoah -- God or Pharoah?

    Someone asked if God really wanted to save Pharoah. Absolutely! Get it in your head that God wants to save EVERYONE -- the WORLD! God would have allowed Pharoah to flee Egypt with the Hebrews if Pharoah had desired to! Just like Jesus would have saved Judas if Judas had repented that same night Jesus gave him the "favored" -- the "guest of honor" -- sot!

    And even though Pharoah and Judas "willed" to do evil and did do evil, God controls the outcomes -- NOT the person! God didn't make them rebel against Him (as you suggest). He takes no pleasure out of the fall of the wicked (Ezek 18:23) (as you suggest) but desires that they should REPENT and not suffer His wrath! Your "theory" that God gets pleasure and glory from condemning men to hell belongs in the "poop shoot!" You're misunderstanding the passage is your problem.

    Hardening IS the blindness. Just like you refuse to see free will and Sovereignty coexisting and just like the Jews refuse to believe the NT, Pharoah's own choices made him blind, J.D. He -- nor any of us -- was made that way. We were born innocent! And God did not force us to be blind. We made those choices ourselves apart from His will.

    skypair
     
    #16 skypair, Feb 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2007
  17. skypair

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    JArthur

    This potter and clay thing speaks of Israe but could as well speak of the church -- only on this wise:

    Within each, there are believers and unbelievers -- vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. If the clay resists, God DOES try to "reform" it (Isa 18:4-10 "the vessel was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again..."). Who is to blame, then, if the vessel is unto dishonor (unbelief)?

    And if the clay "repent," the potter "REPENTS HIMSELF of the evil He thinks to do" (18:8) This is a far cry from your exegesis that God has predestined the clay to either honor or dishonor and the clay has no options!

    skypair
     
  18. J.D.

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    It seems we agree on a lot of things, although that part about God controlling their actions thereby making them sovereign makes no sense. Which side of this debate are you on?
     
  19. J.D.

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    I'm gettin dizzy trying to follow your little circle of logic around. And please away with the potty mouth, there may be children watching.

    Here's my "theory" on Pharoah: "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I [am] the LORD. And they did so." (extract from the Holy Bible, King James Version)
     
  20. AAA

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    I am not on the arminian (man's side) or the calvinist (man's side).

    I am on the side of GOD.

    Who's side are you on: God's and HIS truth or the side of man and man's vain ideas about the bible?

    choice A: GOD's side

    choice B: Man's side

    :godisgood:
     

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