Men depraved since the fall

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Mar 13, 2016.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    by Dr. Robert L. Reymond Associate Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Covenant Theological Seminary St. Louis, Missouri AN INTRODUCTORY STUDY IN CHRISTIAN APOLOGETIC METHODOLOGY THE JUSTIFICATION OF KNOWLEDGE

    Men are now truth suppressors;
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    4 The Greek word κατεχόντων means here “hold down,” “suppress,” “hinder,” (not “hold in the sense of possessing”) as in 2 Thess. 2:6–7; cf. Charles Hodge, Commentary on Romans, on this verse, p. 36. 5 They “exchanged,” not in the sense of “giving up,” for this would contradict the earlier assertion that they “suppressed,” but in the sense that they were satisfied to substitute as the immediate object of their worship the created thing for the Creator. The knowledge of the latter they suppressed

    A helpful article which can be read with great profit in conjunction with the exposition in this section is Hughes’ article, “Crucial Biblical Passages for Christian Apologetics,” in Jerusalem and Athens, pp. 131–140. Also, a profound treatment of the noetic effects of sin can be found in Abraham Kuyper’s Principles of Sacred Theology, pp. 104–114. Briefly, as men construct their sciences, according to Kuyper, they now, because of sin’s effects, must face the likelihood that any and all of these effects of sin can and do bring them in their search for knowledge to ignorance:
    1. falsehood

    2. unintentional mistakes

    3. self–delusion and self–deception

    4. the intrusion of phantasy into the imagination

    5. intentional negative influences of other minds (e.g., in education) upon the mind of the scientist

    6. physical weaknesses influencing the total human psychology

    7. the disorganized relationships of life

    8. the effect of misinformation and inaccuracies learned from one realm of life upon ideas from another domain

    9. self–interest

    10. the weakening of mental energies and the darkening of consciousness

    11. internal disorganization of life–harmonies

    12. the loss of the pou sto7 found only in the revealed knowledge of God, by which one may see the whole Kuyper does not contend that men have lost the capacity of thinking logically; indeed by proper reason, men have been able to correct many of their mistakes. However, he does urge that man’s chief dilemma is his loss of a true knowledge of God, which serves as the transcendental pou sto or reference point which, as we shall see, alone justifies knowledge and from which alone true human predication may be launched

    Which of these effects do you see most often? How do you turn these around?
     
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  2. agedman

    agedman
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    The Scriptures state: (Proverbs 9)

    Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you,
    Reprove a wise man and he will love you.

    Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser,
    Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning.

    The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
    And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
    As I stood among those who were supposedly educated, more often I found that they were certainly smart, and more often could recite with great authority great amounts of documentations supporting whatever view they they might expound; however, more often they were not wise.

    When confronted with the things of God, they would mock and scorn, they would engage in ridicule of spirit and character in order to draw puffed up support of the others to their side and thinking.

    It was often the wise who could actually spend time considering an opposing view, and more often could draw conclusions that were considerably wiser from the compounding of ideas. The wise often would seek beyond the statement to the dissemination. Taking the wisdom and seeing it useful in multiple applications.

    Now at this time in my living, I face a more ominous personal problem.

    Such is reflected in the statement of the OP:
    10. the weakening of mental energies and the darkening of consciousness​

    The "pou sto" isn't from loosing the "true knowledge of God" but remembering that which my Father has graciously taught me through both understanding of Scriptures and the experiences He has used as a guide and instruction to me. It is that fading memory that more often fails what was once could so readily draw from the Scriptures at hand to sharply and precisely place as apples of gold in pictures of silver.

    May my Father have mercy and grace upon me should I ever bring dishonor and shame to Him.
     
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    agedman,

    Are you speaking of persons in the church, or outside the church, or both?

    This indicates they were outside the Kingdom....but nowadays they come in among the saints. This sounds like those described in 2 pet 3.

    Like worldly wiseman in Pilgrims progress.
    .
    Many of us I suspect are finding this to be true of ourselves also.

    Yes.....even if we have escaped the pollutions of this world in general, the lingering effects of the fall still cause our outward man to perish!

    That is a useful observation AG. Your tagline from psalm 71 finds its way into my prayers more than it ever did.
    9 Cast me not off in the time of old age; forsake me not when my strength faileth.

    18 Now also when I am old and greyheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.

    Years ago a friend went with me on some room to room visitation in a nursing home...some of the residents were getting to that place in life where they would drift in and out a bit.....this one white haired old lady was in that condition...so we offered some verses to her and asked if we could pray with her....
    About half way into the prayer she lit up and broke into an acapella version of blessed assurance!....lol...we were the ones who got blessed that day!

    So AG.....have you found some adjustments to deal with this erosion of full facilties?
    Do you meditate on smaller portions of scripture, or camp out a bit longer when reading to make sure all the words come off the page?
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    I think the prophet Jeremiah spoke of this one in reference to The sins of Israel as a nation;
    14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
     

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