Messianic Movement

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Abiyah, Oct 3, 2003.

  1. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why not ask people who are actually in what is
    commonly called the "Messianic Movement," not
    just asking fundamental Baptists? I am not
    saying you should not ask Fundamental Baptists,
    but you must know that they will give one set of
    expected answers and those who aree actually in
    the "movement" will give another. To be fully
    informed, as a fundamental Baptist, ask both.
     
  2. TheOliveBranch

    TheOliveBranch
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe they wish to hear what they want? I wondered the same thing, Abiyah.
     
  3. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi, OliveBranch.

    I was not sure if it was that or if they are afraid that
    what they may consider to be the 'hard questions'
    may be offensive to those of us who could answer.
    Admittedly, too, Ihave trouble with my Internet
    service and often do not want to go into the
    detailed answers, because of it often shutting
    down on me, losing the detailed answers and
    because of the keyboard problems.

    - - - - - - - - - -

    To those asking in the Fundamentalist area:

    Please feel free to ask the hard questions. I, also,
    need to consider them in order to know the Truth.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ok - the hard questions.

    In Acts 21, Romans 14 and Acts 15 and 16:1-3 we see one rule for the Jews and another for the Gentile Christian.

    However in Romans 14 you have an interesting situation "One man OBSERVES one day above another while another man OBSERVES EVERY DAY alike". Neither practice is identified as "better than the other".

    Now we know that Paul OBSERVED Passover and other feast days as well as observing certain practices regarding the taking of a vow.

    He also seems to support the notion that he never asked Jews to stop keeping the customs, traditions and laws of Moses (according to his oft repeated defense in Acts 21-28).

    In Galations 2 - Paul is very glad to report that the gentile Titus is not observing any of it.

    So you have Jewish Christians observing all of it, and Gentiles being exempt from the feast day observances and also circumcision (which meant fully conforming to Hebrew traditions, laws and feastival observances as Galations 5 points out.)

    So are the Messianic Jews promoting that kind of distinction for Jews - or are they claiming that Gentiles ought to be Messianic Jews?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, the term "Messianic" should be defined.There are Messianic Jews, Messianics [not Jewish] "Two House", and a whole group of various "roots" people who also define themselves as Messianic. The Messianic movement is just as confusing as mainstream Christianity.
     
  6. The Harvest

    The Harvest
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think you are asking the wrong question. Why do you need to ask a bunch of people you have never met questions dealing with spiritual matters. Do you have a Bible? Your answers are in there. All you need to do is read that thing. If you have a question, ask the author of the Book and let Him show you the answer in due time.

    James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    I'm a fundamental Baptist and don't claim to know everything. But I know Who does! And He doesn't spend any amount of time on this board. [​IMG]
     
  7. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob Ryan --

    There are very few Messianic groups which claim
    that Gentiles ought to be Messianic Jews, and
    those who do are mistaken. A Gentile can no
    more be a Jew than a rabbit can be a fish.

    With regard to Gentiles being exempt from the
    feasts, I am not aware of any Scripture teling
    Gentiles they should not do the feasts nor of
    any telling them not to observe halachah nor of
    one rule for Jews and another for Gentiles.
    However, If one chooses these things in
    advance, they will often read them into the
    Scriptures. Paul has often stressed that salvation
    is by and through our Lord alone and that doing
    halachah will not bring salvation.
     
  8. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Obviously, you are correct that the "Messianic
    movement" is just as big a Mess as is the church.
    Answering only for myself, I don't buy either the
    two-house theory or the "roots' folks or the
    "secret name" folks. I write strictly from a Baptist-
    based Torah-observant vantage point -- not a
    Charismatic point, which is also among some
    Messianics. In fact, I heavily hesitate to call
    myself "Messianic," although I must for clarity's
    sake, preferring, instead, to say that my biblical
    understanding is Apostolic Judaism, meaning that
    my intention is to follow the halachah of our Lord
    and of the Apostles.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    What about Acts 15 and Acts 21? They both seem to show one rule for the Jews and one for the Gentiles when it comes to ceremonial practices such as feast days.

    In Romans 14 Paul seems to leave them up to the individual to choose and that anything chosen is fine.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Paul never says that ones' choices do not matter;
    what he teaches is that following halachah will
    not save. Note Acts 15:1 -- it is about people
    claiming that unless one is completely Torah-
    observant, that person cannot be saved.

    Paul recognized that those who were once pagan
    are becoming believers, and as is often done,
    those who had "been around" were trying to claim
    that unless they immediately did everything in the
    Law, they could not possibly be saved. What? It
    took those people practically a lifetime to become
    fully Torah-observant, and they expected the new
    believers to do it all, know it all, immediately?

    So Paul said to teach them the bare-bones version
    -- stay away from the contamination of idols, from
    sexual impurity, from strangled beasts, and from
    blood. (Note that all of these have to do with pagan
    worship.)

    Then, he said, "For Moses from ancient generations
    has in every city those who preeach him, since he is
    read in the synagogues every Sabbath." In other
    words, they will pick up on the details, since they
    will be in the synagogues each Sabbath, and Moses
    is taught there each time."
     
  11. Ben W

    Ben W
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2002
    Messages:
    8,868
    Likes Received:
    0
    One important fact to note about the Messianic movement, is that if they were not evangalising to the Jews as they are, which other churches would be?

    I have brought it up here before that the Apostles and others in the New Testament used the Old Testament to witness Jesus Christ to the Jews, yet a number of Christians today do not know how to show a Jew from the Old Testament that Jesus Christ is indeed the Messiah. Yet the Messianic Movement is there doing this as a part of the body of Christ.
     
  12. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Additionally, there are those who He is not in the
    ancient Scriptures and cannot be taught from them.
    What? I read it on Baptist Board within the last
    week. Amazing.
     
  13. jimraboin

    jimraboin
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Good thread Abiyah et al.

    To me the more important issue is figuring out how believing Jews and believing Gentiles can come together as one Body in each region as it was in the book of Acts. A Jew will always be a Jew just as a Gentile will never be. But both share the very same faith in Yeshua Jesus. Both have the same hope. And both are commanded to love one another so that the world might know Jesus is Lord.

    Yes?

    Jim
     
  14. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, it is of utmost importance, Jim, but I have zero,
    loh, nada, nyet, no, not, none, zip, zed, zilch,
    absolutely NO faith that it will happen, except
    under some horrid world-wide disaster or after
    our Lord returns.
     
  15. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Messages:
    648
    Likes Received:
    0
    My next question is what does Torah observant truly mean. Originally there were the ten declarations [commandments] which had 603 further breakdowns added.[ total of 613] Many of these are not even applicable outside of Jerusalem. So is it really possible for someone to claim that they are fully Torah observant?
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Speaking of Romans 14 where Paul affirms BOTH those that eat meat offerred to idols and those who do not.

    Where Paul affirms BOTH those who observe EVERY one of the feast days alike AND those who select ONE to OBSERVE ABOVE another..

    In Romans 14 Paul is not making the point about "saved" vs "not saved" but rather showing that BOTH practics are being done in honor to God and BOTH will stand before God in their God-honoring practices.

    He does not say "one group will start following the practices of the other group" in Romans 14.

    Rather He defends BOTH as God-honoring.

    In Acts 15 it is not Paul making the decision -- but James and the Elders of the church.

    In Acts 15 Paul argues that Gentiles should not "BEcome Jews" which was the meaning of circumcision according to Ephesians 2.

    In Galations 2 Paul argues proudly that Titus never submitted.


    Speaking of James --

    No doubt this is true. But the argument is not that all gentiles will become circumcised if given enough time. In fact Moses' law did not require that of the Gentiles.

    And in Act 16 the first thing Paul does is have a Jew circumcises - who was not really inclined to that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Spirit --

    Torah-observant means this: to be aware of, to
    study, to hold as important, and to observe as
    much possible the Torah (which means instruc-
    tion) commands, given by our Lord, who is the
    Word from the beginning.

    Now, let me ask you: Did I ever say that I was
    "fully Torah observant"? :) I don't think so! I
    am still learning, but of those things I have
    learned, I am Torah-observant.

    Obviously, our God was not ignorant of the fact
    that there would be a dispersion and that people
    far from Israel would worship the God of Israel
    from the U.S.A in 2003. He was not ignorant that
    the Temple would be destroyed, making many of
    His laws regarding the Temple impossible to
    keep. He was not ignorant that we would live
    in lands where full compliance is not possible.
    This, however, does not invalidate His Law which
    will, in the future, once again be Law for all
    peoples. The book of Romans was written to
    comfort those who live without the Temple and to
    instruct them on conducting themselves without it.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Lets not confuse the Torah with the Mishnah.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Abiyah

    Abiyah
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/abiyah.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,194
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where Paul affirms BOTH those who observe EVERY one of the feast days alike AND those who select ONE to OBSERVE ABOVE another..



    In Romans 14 Paul is not making the point about "saved" vs "not saved" but rather showing that BOTH practics are being done in honor to God and BOTH will stand before God in their God-honoring practices.

    He does not say "one group will start following the practices of the other group" in Romans 14.

    Rather He defends BOTH as God-honoring.



    In

    Acts 15 it is not Paul making the decision -- but James and the Elders of the church.

    In Acts 15 Paul argues that Gentiles should not "BEcome Jews" which was the meaning of circumcision according to Ephesians 2.

    In Galations 2 Paul argues proudly that Titus never submitted.[/qb]

    Speaking of James --

    No doubt this is true. But the argument is not that all gentiles will become circumcised if given enough time. In fact Moses' law did not require that of the Gentiles.

    And in Act 16 the first thing Paul does is have a Jew circumcises - who was not really inclined to that.

    In Christ,

    Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

    [ October 09, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    Speaking of Romans 14 where Paul affirms BOTH those that eat meat offerred to idols and those who do not.



    Agreed.


    ]Where Paul affirms BOTH those who observe EVERY one of the feast days alike AND those who select ONE to OBSERVE ABOVE another..

    While that is an interesting data point it does not match the text. Instead of saying "one man observes all the feasts using this method of calculation while another man observes all the feasts using a different method of calculation " Paul makes a very DIFFERENT argument - Paul says "ONE OBSERVES ONE day ABOVE another" - Not "one calculation above another" showing a preference for one of the feast days OVER another not a preference for one calculation over another. So for example observing Passover over the feast of booths. While ANOTHER "OBSERVES EACH DAY " - so for example - BOTH the feast of booths and Passover.

    This can not be made to say "while another observes them all based on another way to calculate the feast days".

    It simply is not in the text.

    I can see that debate within the Jewish community - but Paul is arguing about a church-wide problem Jew and Gentile and it has to do with observing ONE feast day instead of another - (so that would be NOT observing some of them) and another OBSERVES ALL of them.

    He is not contrasting "Observing ALL the days using ONE system of calculation vs Observing ALL the days using ANOTHER system of calculation".


    It just isn't there.

    Bob Said --
    In Romans 14 Paul is not making the point about "saved" vs "not saved" but rather showing that BOTH practics are being done in honor to God and BOTH will stand before God in their God-honoring practices.

    He does not say "one group will start following the practices of the other group" in Romans 14.

    Rather He defends BOTH as God-honoring.


    Bob said --
    In Acts 15 it is not Paul making the decision -- but James and the Elders of the church.

    In Acts 15 Paul argues that Gentiles should not "become Jews" which was the meaning of circumcision according to Ephesians 2.

    In Galations 2 Paul argues proudly that Titus never submitted.


    No these are two different things.

    In acts 16 Paul is insisting that the Jew Timothy BE circumcised. IN Galations 2 Paul proudly proclaims that Titus was NOT as though that was a badge of honor for Gentiles to ignore it.

    In Acts 21 - the point of the vow was to "prove" that there was one set of requirements for the Jews that was NOT being applied to the Gentiles. The "accusation" was that Paul was making the Gentile application to the Jews instead of observing the distinction they had agreed upon in Acts 15's council.

    Let's see if that is correct --

    Galations 2 -
    1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
    2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.
    3 But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.
    4 But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.
    5 But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.


    Paul is showing his defiance and showing holding Titus up as the glowing example of the result.

    He goes even FURTHER in Galations 5

    Galations 5 --
    1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
    2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
    3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
    4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
    6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
    7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
    8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
    9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.


    Obviously the context is the message to gentiles FOR if this were applied to Jews then Paul would be forcing Timothy in Acts 16 to lose his salvation.

    So obviously Paul is pointing out that the abuse of the system (that is insisting that it applied to Gentiles) was gross error.

    But he was NOT arguing that for Jews to be circumcised was to lose their salvation. Rather it shows that all arguments made for Gentiles to be circumcised were in error and Gentiles that gave in to those arguments were in danger of losing salvation.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ October 10, 2003, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     

Share This Page

Loading...