Military pastor

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by hdavy2002, Jul 23, 2007.

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  1. hdavy2002

    hdavy2002
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    I would like to know what does a Military pastor face while preaching the word to soldiers, who are trained to kill another human being. It is my undersatnding that soldiers are often subject to figures representing members of the enemy and are asked to charge with baynet. Put the punch the baynonet in the enemys stomach and push him with the leg, so the thing comes out. In my country they are subjected to live blood, screams and told to abuse the enemy. In other words, we make monsters of our young boys.

    Now as a pastor, the lord would teach us kindness, he teaches us to love one another. when I truly listen to his words, I kneel down and say "thank you Jesus, you never took anyones life, but you gave your life for others" so that people like me could be saved.

    Now I know the enemy is an enemy, but jesus says, "Love thy enemy, if one slaps you on the left, turn your right cheek". I feel even the enemy is somebody's son, somebody's grandson, some mother must have kept her night awake trying to feed him, and going to work next day. yes the goverments of both country are evil, in case of India and pakistan, but on the ground level, people are still brothers as they have the same bloood as me. If I need A+ blood tommorw a enemy donor could help me. I have realized that the goverment makes soldiers, the goverment makes politics. Kind of reminds me of Rome, thousands of soldiers die, in order for the Roman king to be rich.

    Anyway, life of a soldier is diffrent and the teaching of the lord is opposite to what he does. Now I am talking about the regular soldier who goes to fight, one might say the infantry.

    I wonder what the pastors face when they preach the word saying " Do not kill"

    Sorry for the spelling mistakes.
     
  2. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
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    In the first place "Thou Shalt Not Kill" means thou shalt not murder. There is a difference between murdering a person and taking a life in combat.

    Jesus also said, Joh 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends."

    For a Christian to allow injustice and genocide and etcera to go on in the world while he or she enjoys peace and security is more of a sin than engaging in a just war or defending one's country in a time of war.

    We know that all war is a result of sin but the Christian must live in the world as it is not as he or she wishes it to be.

    I have pastored military men who were in charge of firing nuclear weapons if they were so ordered by the President of the US. Some of these men taught Sunday School and served as deacons in my church. Their occupation was accepted by our church as an honorable one.

    The Roman Centurion that Peter commanded to be baptized in Acts 10 did not resign his commission in the Roman Army but rather became salt and light in the military establishment.


     
  3. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
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    The Chaplains life is not easy.

    I would disagree with the idea that killing an enemy soldier in a war is murder. Read through the Old Testament and you find the Lord God ordering Israel to kill everyone. (1 Samuel 15)

    To bring it to the New testament when the soldier asks Jesus what to do, the Lord Jesus tells him not to oppress anyone and to be content with his wages. (Luke 3)

    Paul says that the government has the right to bear the sword. (Rom 12)

    Soldiers might become monsters, but they don't have to be. The best soldier is trained not to become a monster who kills indiscriminately, but one who thinks and kills only the enemy.
     
  4. StefanM

    StefanM
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    Read Rev. 19:11-21.
     
  5. Rufus_1611

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    "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages." - Luke 3:14
     
  6. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
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    ESV Luk 3:14 Soldiers also asked him, "And we, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages."

    Just a little difference in interpretation here.
     
  7. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    [Luke 3:14] He doesn’t say, “Throw down your spear and quit the army”. He gives them instruction on how they should behave as soldiers. There were many soldiers stationed in the area, and many of them helped the publicans, and as such stood to gain by immoral means. Even other soldiers, other than the ones helping publicans, often stood to gain by extortion through several means.

    They ask him, “What shall we do?” The first part of his response is, “Do violence to no man”. This is a common expression in ancient Greek, and in the LXX, but is found only here in the NT. The literal meaning of the word is to shake thoroughly, and in so doing, to thoroughly terrify. It came to mean to extort money or property by intimidating. It was a process of blackmail to which Socrates referred. This act was a constant temptation to soldiers, not only to try to get some loot from those being intimidated, but if they didn’t pay up, the soldiers would turn them in for rewards offered for arresting those committing certain crimes. But, might does not make right in the eyes of God.

    This ties in with the second instruction: “Neither accuse any falsely.” The soldiers would often intimidate someone, using physical force, for monetary gain, but people would stand to gain by informing on those committing certain crimes. Accusing someone falsely could gain a nice little reward, or could exact revenge upon an enemy.

    He doesn’t tell the soldiers to quit soldiering, but he does tell them quit intimidating and quit falsely accusing people. But, he also told them something else: “And be content with your wages.” Discontent with wages was a primary complaint of many of the mercenary soldiers. The word for “wages”, “opsOnion”, was originally anything cooked and bought. From “opson”, which means “cooked food”, and “Oneomai”, which means “to buy”. It was originally anything eaten with bread, such as broiled fish, and it came to mean whatever is bought to be eaten with bread, and then it came to mean a soldier’s pay or allowance. “OpsOnion”. “Rations”; “pay”; “wages”.

    This word is used in only four places in the NT. 1 Corinthians 9:7 uses this word. It says, “Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges?” That word “charges” is the same word. In other words, “Who goes to war supplying his own rations or wages”. Who provides our rations or our wages? God. In 2 Corinthians 11:8, Paul is speaking and he says, “I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service.” And of course, Romans 6:23.
     
  8. hdavy2002

    hdavy2002
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    It was an evening when Capt Yaswinder singh was given his orders to wipe out a village where there were Pakistan trained terrorist were hiding, he took his platoon and walked up hill. A newly converted Yaswinder was proud of the army, his father was colonel and his grand father was Brigadier. His forefathers were in the Maharaja Ranjeet Singh's personal guards.

    Yaswinder at the age of 28 was strong, well built and eager for combat. This would be first killing mission. His platoon consisted of men who were hardened to sound of gunfire and slicing the enemy's throat. Yaswinder had trained for this day over and over again at the academy. As they approached the village, then men were crouching at firing positions, hiding behind rocks and trees. Yaswinder picked up his binoculars and saw a village preparing to go to sleep. He saw men brining the cattle in, women making fire and children playing on the ground.

    He wondered for a moment, but his orders were, "Wipe the village clean, for they are supporting the enemy and the enemy is hiding in those huts"

    He thought about his orders, looked at his gun. His men were waiting for his orders, perhaps thinking the same as him. The Sergent approached him " Saab (sir) what should we do, should we radio back or go with the orders." Yaswinder decided to radio back to his commanding officer. The commandant wouldn't listen " No I want them wiped clean, leave no man, i don't care if there are women, you have your orders or get court marshelled"

    Putting down his phone, he ordered the sergeant to surround the village and shoot at sight.
    The young boys under his command, opened fire killing women, men, cows and kids who were screaming. For some the bullet chopped through the throat. The cows groaned in agony. Women screamed, from somewhere the AK 47 opened up, soldiers went after that. They went from hut to hut chopping down every one. The young boys from the Gurkha Regiment took out their traditional Kukaries (Nepalese traditional Knifes) and slashed the old women and cut the pregnent women, there was blood in their eyes. Capt yaswinder's clothes was soaked with warm blood. His gun barrel had dripping blood. Some brain matter was over his clothes, by the time they finished there were intestines on floor, neck cuts, Knifes stuck in ribs. Groaning cows and children shooting out blood towards the roof.

    The terrorist were dead, their guns silenced, some soldiers were trying to wash in the well and some were collecting the jewelry.

    The captain could feel warm blood tricking down his underpants, as his shirt was soaked.

    ------
    Here we have a young convert going for war. Yes we can justify so many ways that god asked us to wage war. Whether Joshua did was right or wrong, but in war all kinds of things happen. Look at the Vietnam war. Men die from both sides.

    I want to ask you " When you die would you go to a Christian heaven" Where will the Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs go. It is not thiner fault that they don't know about jesus. no one told them. They have never seen the holy bible.

    So if we are able to justify that god has allowed war, what happens tomorrow when your son and daughter get killed in war, do you feel compassion for the enemy, do you say that I forgive you, just as jesus forgived those who persecuted him.

    One man gave his life for us, isn't that enough blood shed. Jesus also said " I have to save the sheep's of the other fold" Now what happened in the old testament was wrong in some way. One cannot justify that we are allowed to wage war. Would jesus love less an Iraqi because today he is your enemy. he was a human yesterday. Today , the canadains are your brothers and tomorrow they become your enemy, would you go to kill them and say, god has justified that killing your enemy is correct. I want to ask you WHO IS AN ENEMY.

    just a healthy debate friends. Don't get me wrong.
     
    #8 hdavy2002, Jul 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2007
  9. Hardsheller

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    The enemy is the one who desires the blood of my family or my neighbors for any unjust reason.

    The illustration you gave of the slaughter in Pakistan was the result of an unjust order. The American military allows its officers and soldiers to disobey unjust orders such as this.

    Just for the sake of argument - Could you watch the slaughter of your loved ones without lifting a hand in their defense?
     
  10. Tom Bryant

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    Yes, enough blood has been spilled, but more will be spilt because man is a sinner and sinners try to take control of others by force. And when that happens on a national scale, war breaks out.

    Do non-combatants die in war? Sure, but a soldier tries not to take the life of a non-combatant.

    But in some wars, the enemy is not in uniform. It is hard to know who the enemy is, at times. But there are rules of engagement in war which sets the "ground rules" for when shots may be fired..

    Your question about Muslims, Hindu and Sikhs is another question altogether. It is answered in Romans 1.

    But from some of your questions and statements I wonder if you accept the Bible as the final inerrant authority for our lives.
     
  11. Salty

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    Would you say there is a difference between a solider and a policeman? Both are trained to kill the "enemy" those would would do harm to innoncent parties.
     
  12. hdavy2002

    hdavy2002
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    We loved jesus very much too, but we all watched him die and did nothing. We could have taken the army. if everyone takes an eye for an eye then we all will be blind. Yes it is not easy to watch your love one's die. it's not even easy to forgive. I guess thats why we love him becuase he has the power to forgive even those who took his life.
     
  13. hdavy2002

    hdavy2002
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    I am thinking like a non christian for now. Why should we kill others, even if we are ordered to do so. My question to myself is : " Can a Christian join the army"

    No one is questioning the bible here. I am more into the teachings of jesus rather than the teachings of Moses.
     
  14. Hardsheller

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    Of Course a Christian can join the Army.

    The Roman Centurion, Cornelius, is evidence that the NT Church did not forbid soldiers from being Christians.
     
  15. hdavy2002

    hdavy2002
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    ok my original question was " what do military pastor face when they preach the word to soldiers" The reason I am asking dumb question is becuase I would like to preach to non christians and someday someone would ask me similar questions, i cannot say, i will get back to you. You know what i mean, sorry if i upset anyone.
     
  16. Tom Bryant

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    No one is upset with you. I would question such statements as "I am more into the teachings of jesus rather than the teachings of Moses" because I see no difference in them.

    Jesus will one day return in command of an army that slays millions. David was a man after God's own heart yet, was a warrior.

    The job of a chaplain is not to pass judgment on the soldiers or the morality of a particular war. His job is to represent God to soldiers. Cornelius was a soldier who was won to Christ, yest, as has been said, wasn't told to resign his commission by Peter.

    There are certain groups who would stand against war such as the mennonites. Maybe talking to them might give a different perspective.
     
  17. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    A military chaplain has to be non-denominational, from my understanding. Actually, it's more like multi-denominational, non-specific.

    For example, if someone asks, "What must I do to be saved?" a military chaplain cannot answer. However, a member of the armed forces can.
     
  18. Salty

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    Many evangelical chaplains have led soldiers to the Lord in the course of their duties PTL:thumbs:
     
  19. Hardsheller

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    That's not my understanding of the Chaplaincy at all.

    I think Southern Baptist Chaplains are free to share the Gospel as evidenced by the large numbers of soldiers baptized during the Iraqi war.



     
  20. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    That's why I qualified my statement with, "from my understanding".

    I applied for a civilian position doing this with the military, and I rejected the offer because these were the rules as presented to me. So, I assumed that since it was a civilian position with the military, it would be similar.

    Now, I could have presented it honestly if someone came up and asked specifically, but could not answer specifially to the general question of "what must I do to be saved?"

    Also, I was told that I would have to perform mass and other rituals of other religions.

    FWIW, when I go to hospitals, although I have some leeway around here, I am prohibited from doing anything unless the person asks, and they even tried to prohibit us from praying over the unconcious person even at their family's request. This one was oveturned, though.
     
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