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Millenial Views Among Non Baptist

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by tyndale1946, Feb 9, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    3AngelsMom--That would be a good idea, but I think it IS important for us to be aware of who the Beast is, and what it is going to do. We are warned.

    The first to popularize use of the term "AntiChrist" and "demon" and "tryant" to refer to a religious leader was the Catholic Church. They assigned these titles to the Pope.

    Some years later - the catholic monk, Martin Luther began to follow suit. But only after considerable "prompting" in the form of disagreeable treatment by some of those in the Catholic Church.


    As it turns out, the catholic church came about that practice quite naturally - as papal armies engaged in mortal combat with other papal armies. Pope against Pope. Rival faction against Rival faction and ALL of them elected by the SAME group of Cardinals.

    Fascinating reading.

    Bob
     
  2. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    I am sure that you are more knowlegeable in this study than me, considering that you wrote a book and all.... But, would you tell me what you think of this? It is a little something I put together for another thread, that pertains to your teachings.

    Daniel 9:25-27.

    Y----Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
    Z----the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Y----And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
    Z----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    Y----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
    Z----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Ok, the Y's with the Y's and the Z's with the Z's:

    Y----Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
    Y----And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
    Y----And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

    Z----the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Z----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    Z----and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Y----Jesus
    Z----Desolator/antichrist

    These passages are a prime example of antithetical parrallels in an antiphonal grouping.

    Also, what indication is there, that the 70th week is not chronological to the other 69?

    God Bless
     
  3. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I also agree that the whore of Revelation is Apostate Jerusalem... A reading of Ezekiel chapter sixteen teaches nothing less IMHO!... I also feel that the turning of millenial belief in this country started with Scofield and Darby... I also believe that the biggest percentage of Gods people up until that time were amil. How are the works of Josephus viewed... As historical fact and subject to interpretation... Or a secular writing... written to save his own hide!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  4. show me

    show me New Member

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    There is a Baptist Church in a nearby town that has a sign up in front of the church. In each of the four corners of the sign in big letters are the four words: pre-millinial, dispensational, evangelical, fundamental. While many of you may say a big AMEN to this churches theological position, I wonder how un-churched people see that sign and wonder if everyone who doesn't hold these "views" is not welcome there.

    My local Episcopal Church welcomes you regardless of you age, race, political postition and no matter how many times you have been born. [​IMG]
     
  5. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Oh? And how many times must Christ be crucified afresh?
     
  6. show me

    show me New Member

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    "Oh? And how many times must Christ be crucified afresh?"

    Oh, lighten up. :rolleyes:
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Apostate Israel plays no part in Bible prophecy after the cross.

    The church in Apostacy (as in Rev 17 and James 4 and 2 Thess 2 and Acts 20, and 2Cor 11) is if utmost interest to the Bible authors - but once the curse of Matt was issued and the turning to the gentiles of Acts 13 and Romans 11 was confirmed - the NEW concern was the issue of future CHRISTIAN apostacy. (you know, the inquisition, torturing millions of Christians, burning Bibles, praying to the dead...etc all those little things that the Jews-in-apostacy model so lightly dismisses.)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. show me

    show me New Member

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    What Bibles did the Catholic Church burn? Were they heretical Bibles (they existed) or do you think they burned any Bibles (you know, to make sure people would not learn the truth and leave the Catholic Church.) What sources are you using?

    I read the book "The Trail of Blood". Yeesh! Talk about inventing history to try to validate a church.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Take a position.

    1 you never heard of the many historians today - both Catholic AND non-Catholic that report the Catholic bible burnings.

    2. You DO know of those bible burnings but like the heretic burnings you lump them all into - things done to heretics. Both Bibles and humans burned by your friends the Roman Catholics - if the bibles were printed by a heretic.

    Pick one. Because you seem to be picking BOTH instead.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    To continue with the thought of amillenialism.. I wanted to capture a couple of thoughts that were running through my mind this evening as I was meditating upon the Christian reality during my spiritual reading.

    Christianity from the start (in the NT and the Early Church) saw itself in light of what we would call an "immanent eschatology". That is, the Kingdom of God is definitively a heavenly reality only to be perfectly realized in the eschaton (in the end).

    However, with the advent of Christ in the Incarnation, this eschaton is somehow present in mystery. Heaven meets earth. The invisible meets the visible. The divine meets the human. Christ, the divine being, enters into time and brings heaven to earth. In him, we see the seed of the kingdom of heaven.

    The Early Church saw itself as the continued Incarnation of Christ as his body. This eschatological reality continues in the Church on Earth while its head, Christ, resides in heaven, and in her worship, she saw herself as united inseparably with the angels and saints in the heavenly realm.

    Christ, who now sits at the right hand of the Father, rules over his Church at present as she makes her pilgrim way towards her heavenly home, awaiting his Second Coming. The article of the Apostles' Creed, "The communion of saints", bespeaks of the unity the Church Militant below shares with the Church Triumphant above.

    We pray "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven". The Church is the heavenly kingdom, esp. in her divine liturgy when she shares in the heavenly worship of the angels and saints. This is where the Apocalypsis (the Book of Revelation) with its sensual imagery portrays this reality in the Church's liturgical worship.

    So the heavenly is here in the now, but its glory is veiled in mystery (Gk. musterion; Lat. sacramentum). The Christian appears like the pagan, yet the reality of the indwelling presence of God is real, though veiled. The Church appears as a mere sociological gathering of men, awaiting the reality of the eschaton, yet she is now truly the Body of her glorified groom, with the glory veiled in sacrament. The Eucharist encapsulates the glory and grace of the King's true presence, yet veiled in worldly elements.

    Only through faith can we perceive the mystery of this immanent eschatology, as only faith could perceive the divinity of Christ veiled in his bloody humanity.

    [ February 12, 2003, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You have to step way back from your Bible to get that..

    Carson - The Early Church saw itself as the continued Incarnation of Christ as his body...


    Wrong. Chris was the HEAD according to the NT authors. They did not claim to be "Christ incarnate" - this is not ever stated in scripture regarding the church.

    Christ is said to be the vine and the church members the branches.

    Carson We pray "thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven". The Church is the heavenly kingdom

    Totally wrong.

    We do not pray "thankfully Thy kindom CAME".

    Nor did Christ teach us to pray that. Rather we CONTINUE to pray for the Kingdom to COME. Our request for that FUTURE event echoes that SAME request by Christ in HIS prayers.

    Christ stated WHILE HE bodily was on earth "Thy Kingdom COME". Christ appealed to that future time when God's Kingdom would be here on earth - as we see the Angel announcing at Christ's second coming in Rev 11:15-18 Where Christ destroys the earth with fire.

    The idea that the RCC is MORE of God's kingdom on earth - than Christ HIMSELF when HE was on earth ... is not "believable".

    Rev - 11:15 makes it clear "The Kingdom of the World HAS BECOME the Kingdom of our LORD" - AT the coming of Christ when He "Takes His great power and BEGINS to reign" Rev 11:17

    The 2nd coming that we see so vividly described in Chatper 19 is followed by the 1000 years so blatantly identified in Rev 20.

    It can't be missed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Wrong. Chris was the HEAD according to the NT authors. They did not claim to be "Christ incarnate" - this is not ever stated in scripture regarding the church.

    The Church is the continued Incarnation of Christ in the World, according to the testimony of Paul:

    Acts 9:4 - "And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?'"

    Christ appealed to that future time when God's Kingdom would be here on earth ... The 2nd coming that we see so vividly described in Chatper 19 is followed by the 1000 years so blatantly identified in Rev 20.

    Christ came in his Judgment against Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and his Kingdom is on Earth presently in the form of the Church, which is symbolized by the 1,000 years in John's Apocalyptic Vision:

    Mark 13:26-30 - "And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place."

    I'm not denying the 2nd Coming, nor the final eschatological ushering in of the Kingdom. I'm saying that Christian eschatology is not a far off, distant reality, but an imminent reality that has already begun and has yet to fully take place.

    The idea that the RCC is MORE of God's kingdom on earth - than Christ HIMSELF when HE was on earth ... is not "believable".

    But the claim is that Christ indeed is here on earth both in his Body, which is the Church and in his Body, which is the Eucharist.

    And, it is believable - for the one who has eyes of faith.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ stated it as a FUTURE event. "Thy Kingdom come".

    He directed His CHURCH to state it as a Future Event "Thy Kingdom come".

    Paul identified it as a future event for which we "eagerly wait" Philipians 3, "with groanings" Romans 8.

    Christ was ALREADY Christ bodily on earth - and Yet - He said it was "future".

    The 7 last plagues are listed in Rev 16 BEFORE the 2nd coming events of Rev 19 AND the Millenium is described in Rev 20.

    IF as you say you ALSO accept the future second coming listed in Rev 19 THEN you must "see" that the 1000 years that FOLLOWS that future event of Rev 19 - is itself future to events PRIOR to Rev 19 - which includes the Rev 16 world-wide seven last plagues.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Ahhhhhhhh.... well, I'm having a quick cup of coffee before I jump on the ole 9 to 5 treadmill and join the other rats in the race....so.....

    About 20 years ago, at a prophecy conference at our Fundamentalist assembly, I spent a week getting filled with all the usual Premillenialist stuff. It intrigued me, and I resolved to delve deeper into the Scriptures to understand better the signs of His coming and its imminence.

    However.....when I really began to tear apart Matthew 24, I simply could not make the chronology of events match that which the Premillenialists were proposing. I worked at it and worked at it, and finally came up with an answer...

    I had to accept it "by faith" because it was true because this is what the "true teachers of the faith" were teaching.

    So I let the problem go and just accepted the rest on face value.

    Then, about 10 years ago, I met an interesting fellow by the name of Ed Stevens, who introduced me to a whole 'nother way of looking at this fascinating subject.

    WHAT IF....

    What if the "end times" being spoken of were not the end times of the whole wide world, but the end of the Old Covenant with the Jewish Nation? What if everything spoken of had to do with the curses promised upon covenant breakers in Deut. 28? What if it was the fulfillment of Matthew 23 and the dire prophecies given against the Jewish nation by their Messias?

    What if it had NOTHING to do with us at all?

    Now that was an intriguing idea indeed!! And one that set me off on study again. And as I read book after book regarding this idea, certain things came to light:

    1. Terrible mistranslations of the scriptures used to promote premillenialism. For instance, the idea that the world we live in will be destroyed, coming from the mistranslation of the word "aion" in Matthew 24: 3. It is not the "end of the world", it is the end of the age. Aion is NEVER translated "world" it is always "age"!! But apparently, either willingly complicit or downright stupid teachers have decided to ignore this fact and not do their homework. And this is one of many, many such horrible mistranslations. For instance, do you know that there are four different Greek words which the KJV translates to be "world", yet they all have VERY VERY DIFFERENT MEANINGS!!

    Tsk tsk tsk. Very sloppy!!

    2. Ignoring of the clear promises from Christ Himself of His imminent return. In Matthew 16: 28, Christ makes a promise that must have absolutely just TINGLED in the ears of the apostles who heard Him speak. He promised to return IN THEIR LIFETIME!!! Read it yourself!! It says that not all who are standing there listening to Him would die before He returned in the Father's glory. But promises like these are either ignored or clumsily explained away. Sorry, I can't ignore His promises. He said it....and He therefore DID IT!!! Anything that violates that promise therefore must be looked at again.

    3. Horrible misapplication of verses and interpretations completely out of the context of the chapters they are in. For instance, the verses most referred to in order to "prove" the so called "rapture" of the Church in 1 Corin 15 and 2 Thess 4, are verses which are speaking about the RESURRECTION. Read the entire chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians. How anyone can miss that St. Paul's entire discourse is about RESURRECTION is beyond me!!! But suddenly, out of the clear blue, after almost 50 verses of defense of the resurrection, we are supposed to believe that in a completely disjointed manner, he switches to a completely different subject. The context will simply not allow for this. And this is one of many, many interpretive and translational errors of Premillenialism

    4. The testimony of the NT writers to their belief in His soon coming, expected in their lifetime. Again, these writings are largely ignored, yet the tense of imminency in the Greek should not be ignored.

    5. The wording of the promises in Revelation: "Behold, I come quickly. Folks, 2,000 years is NOT quickly!! It is, in fact, rather tardy, considering the language and tense of the Greek. No wonder the first century apostles were looking every day for His return. Certainly if you called me up from whereever you live, said you would be in town tommorrow, and then put it this way.

    "Please wait at the airport because although the time is a little fuzzy, I am coming QUICKLY and will be there SOON."

    I would NOT expect you 2000 years later!!!

    6. But of course, what really pulled it altogether, and eventually helped me into the Catholic Church (GASP!!! :eek: ) was the fact that if the Church is indeed the kingdom of God on earth as the Early Fathers have written, then for that to be true, the King must be HERE AND AMONG US NOW!! As Scott Hahn said several months ago at his conference which I attended (what a grand fun day that was!!)

    "Where ever the kingdom is, the King must be!!"

    AMEN!! And our King has returned and is verily present in every Tabernacle in the world and in every Monstrance in the world, present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, the Whole Christ, ruling as He will in Sovereign glory, present among His people whom He loves.

    My study of the dissolution of the Old Covenant and the replacement of the Old Covenant nation by the "new nation" (the Church) (Matthew 21: 33 - 46) brought everything together in a neat package. How could I resist the Church which Christ established to be His New Covenant community, His kingdom on earth? Everything pointed to the replacement of the Old Covenant by the New, and to the changing of the rulership on earth from a localized Jewish theocracy to a world wide Church family consisting of Jew and Gentile, united in one Body in Christ.

    There is YARDS AND YARDS more, and it all fits together in a beautiful pattern in which I do not have to torture Scripture to make it fit preconcieved patterns of thought.

    You can study the Preterist view online, and I would encourage all who are interested in an objective study to do so. Just type the word Preterist in your search engine and go to the sites.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  15. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In the early 1800's the RCC's influence still had almost complete dominance on the "eschatology" of Christians - hence the majority where still clinging to the Amillenialist views that had evolved over time in the RCC.

    However that view is based on a "snippet" approach to scripture in which entire chapters are simply "ignored" and only "snippets" from a few chapters are "accepted".

    The result is the discussion above. Rev Chapters 19,20 are ignored but a single verse in Matt 16 is landed on as if That was all scripture had to say on the subject.

    Matt 24 showing that ALL nations tribes tongues and peoples witness the return of Christ -- again -- ignored.

    2Peter 3? -- the destruction of the world at Christ's return? --- again - ignored.

    Romans 8 and 1Cor 15 the entire Creation being set free at Christ's return --- again - ignored.

    John 14:1-3 Christ GOING to heaven to prepare a place there for us and then returning to take us to WHERE HE IS to be WITH Him there - ignored.

    1 Thess 4 - the saints being CAUGHT up to meet Christ at His return --- ignored.

    Rev 11:15-18 where the destruction of the world at the time when Christ returns and "THE KINGDOM of this WORLD has then BECOME the KINGDOM of our God and of His Christ" -- again -- ignored.

    Vast sections of scripture have to be "ignored" and WHY? Because the RCC "needed" to pin the PREDICTED failures identified in the NT on "the Jews" to avoid the obvious problems those predicted failures point out with Catholicism.

    And until the mid-1800's a great deal of Protestantism had not yet figured that out.

    But - now - Protestantism has pretty much gotten back on track with the NT church's early teaching on the premillenial literal second coming of Christ in the exact sequence we see laid out in Rev CHAPTERS 19, 20 and 21.

    Praise God!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Christ prayed WHILE ON EARTH "Thy Kingdom Come".

    The RCC claims that The Kingdom HAS COME since the RCC is Christ on earth. YET EVEN CHRIST HIMSELF did not say in the Gospels "well I AM on Earth so the future Kingdom has already come - no need to pray THY KINGDOM COME".

    The circular reasoning of the RCC on this point - is blatant.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    2Peter 3? -- the destruction of the world at Christ's return? --- again - ignored.

    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    No one ignores this verse. There is a ready answer for your misinterpretation of this:

    The Greek word is stoicheon

    The PROTESTANT Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the NT has the following to say regarding this:

    Gal.4: 3ff, however, seems to number the law among the stoicheia, and 4: 8-9 seems to include false gods. These references rule out such senses as the cosmic elements, the stars, stellar spirits, or simply spiritual forces. Building on thoughts of his age, Paul is using the term in a new way, describing the stoicheia as weak and beggerly. In a transferred sense, the stoicheia are the THINGS UPON WHICH PRE-CHRISTIAN EXISTENCE RESTS, ESPECIALLY PRE-CHRISTIAN RELIGION. (emphasis mine). These things are impotent; they bring bondage instead of freedom.

    In other words, the "elements" (basic foundational substance) of the Christian religion is the OLD COVENANT. It is this which St. Peter is talking about, and in the fiery judgement of God in AD 70, these weak and beggerly elements (Gla. 4:3 and 4:9) were destroyed and the New Age of Christ's kingdom was finally and forever set up upon their ashes. The Old Covenant could not do what the New Covenant does, therefore, it was about to pass away (Heb 8:13) and AD 70 was the complete destruction of it. It will never rise again to torment mankind.

    You need to learn to do comparative word studies instead of listening to Jack Van Impe.

    Romans 8 and 1Cor 15 the entire Creation being set free at Christ's return --- again - ignored.

    No, it is YOU who are ignoring what the chapter is saying. 1 Corinthians 15 is distinctly a chapter on the resurrection. There is this section:

    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


    which speaks to the final coming. Notice the time lines indicated here. First resurrected - Christ. Second resurrected -- Christ's at his coming. Final resurrection -- at the end of time when Christ delivers to the Father the kingdom. And it says that He must reign until ALL ENEMIES are put under His feet. This cannot possibly fit the Premillenialist scheme of things since during the 1000 year reign, Jesus rules over loyal subjects. There are no enemies. His coming (according to Premil theory) destroys all the enemies of God who are ammassed against Jerusalem and about to destroy it.

    John 14:1-3 Christ GOING to heaven to prepare a place there for us and then returning to take us to WHERE HE IS to be WITH Him there - ignored.

    Not at all. You are IN heavenly places in Christ Jesus RIGHT NOW!! All you have to do is miss one heartbeat for the reality of this to settle into you. The taking of us to be with Him is in the spiritual realm. It happened in AD 70, and was described in 2 Thess. 4 and 1 Corin. 15 by passages which are misinterpreted as being "rapture proofs". They are no such thing. They are talking about the resurrection, those who are "dead" (that is, separated from God, which is death) and those who are still living.

    Prior to this event, the righteous who died "in the Lord" could not go to Heaven. The sacrifice had not been done on the Cross yet, therefore, Heaven was still closed off. The righteous went to a place called Paradise. Abraham was there, along with Moses, Noah, King David, and all the righteous who had died in faith. But they were still "dead" in the sense that they were separated from God. And until the sacrifice was made to God for Adam's sin, to reunite God to mankind, separate they would stay.

    Now if you know anything at all about Jewish rite and religion, you know that the CORPORATE SACRIFICE for the covenantal people is YOM KIPPUR. In Hebrews 9 and 10, we see a curious thing. Christ takes His own precious Blood and goes into the "temple made without hands" in Heaven and cleanses it as the Great High Priest. In other words, He performs YOM KIPPUR, and does so for the new nation of the New Covenant, the Church.

    In the Jewish rite, the sacrifice of YOM KIPPUR was not complete until the high priest descended down the stairs he had ascended to make that offereing. Therefore, by making the type/antetype fulfillment, our YOM KIPPUR as the Church, done by our Great High Priest, would not be complete until Christ returned also from whence He had ascended to make that sacrifice. Antetype MUST follow type.

    So...when Jesus returned in AD 70, the sacrifice was completed, paradise was opened and the "dead" in Christ were raised to glory. And the living saints were also translated in spirit, that is, there was a change in their relationship to God so that any righteous man or woman dying from thence onward would no longer go to Paradise, but be now ushered straight to the presence of God. This is the "catching up" which happened to the still living believers in AD 70. Their whole spiritual existence changed in the twinkling of an eye as Christ finished that work He had started. And this is resurrection, being taken from the state of separation from God (death) given to us by Adam, to being united to Him through the work of Christ.

    1 Thess 4 - the saints being CAUGHT up to meet Christ at His return --- ignored.

    Already answered. Caught up does not mean what you presuppose it to mean. Premils "read into" these words BIG TIME!!

    Rev 11:15-18 where the destruction of the world at the time when Christ returns and "THE KINGDOM of this WORLD has then BECOME the KINGDOM of our God and of His Christ" -- again -- ignored.

    Well, certainly. Who do you THINK is in charge now? Satan? Can't be. He was defeated on the Cross, Christ took ownership, and the Church is simply on a protracted "mopping up" campaign. Don't be decieved by what you see around you. Christ Jesus is SOVEREIGN and not the evil one.

    Vast sections of scripture have to be "ignored" and WHY? Because the RCC "needed" to pin the PREDICTED failures identified in the NT on "the Jews" to avoid the obvious problems those predicted failures point out with Catholicism.

    What a load!!

    And until the mid-1800's a great deal of Protestantism had not yet figured that out.

    But - now - Protestantism has pretty much gotten back on track with the NT church's early teaching on the premillenial literal second coming of Christ in the exact sequence we see laid out in CHAPTERS 19, 20 and 21.


    It is NOT the Preterist view which ignores Scripture. It is the Premillenialist. It is just fine for you to say that I am taking Matthew 16: 28 out of context if you wish. But there is so much other support for this verse that it is not at all standing alone. I do not have to torture the Greek, mistranslate, and deny the covenantal structure of God's salvational economia in order to be a Preterist. But Premillenialists sure do!!

    Have you EVER actually STUDIED the Preterist view? (and I DON'T mean a cursory glance at it -- I mean SERIOUSLY STUDY) or is your position that the Premil view is right and you will defend it to your dying breath without ever considering anything else?
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    2Peter 3? -- the destruction of the world at Christ's return? --- again - ignored.


    2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    Your response above hangs all your hopes on trying to retranslate ONE word in the chapter. HOWEVER exegesis is NOT based on trying to bend ONE word to your bias. NOTICE that in 2Peter 3 the devasting point of CONTEXT is made that JUST as the World WAS destroyed BY WATER -- SO God is going to DESTROY it by fire.

    There is no escaping that Context - using proper exegesis your one-word-hopeful-monster attempt has no hope of deleting the overwhelmingly obvious intent and purpose of the chapter.

    Your simple attempt to ignore everything in the chapter and then claim

    Is utterly hopeless. The entire chapter all ALL it's devastating case against your view must be addressed by that wrenching rework that you propse for your one-word-stand.

    Notice ALSO that in 2Peter 3 God DELAYS this event so that all may be saved. Delaying the event that your one-word-theology proposes - saves no one.

    =============================

    Romans 8 and 1Cor 15 the entire Creation being set free at Christ's return --- again - ignored.


    The resurrection Is explicitly associated with Christ's return. IF you claim Christ returned in 70 ad - then you need the resurrection of all saints in 70 AD


    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    This fits perfectly - since the enemies of Christ ARE destroyed at Christ's return -- "the REST were destroyed by the sword that comes from His mouth" Rev 19.

    ==================================

    John 14:1-3 Christ GOING to heaven to prepare a place there for us and then returning to take us to WHERE HE IS to be WITH Him there - ignored.

    Christ said in John 14 "Where I go YOU CAN NOT Go" -- then He adds "but I WILL COME AGAIN". He makes the point "I GO that I may PREPARE A PLACE for you". It is in THAT PLACE where HE has GONE that He is Preparing a PLACE for us.

    Your view requires a complete rejection of this text as well. This is ANOTHER case where you cling to your beliefs IN SPITE of the text of scripture not BECAUSE of it.

    ===========================
    Ed said --
    The taking of us to be with Him is in the spiritual realm. It happened in AD 70, and was described in 2 Thess. 4

    utter nonsense - again this is a place where you believe the RCC In spite of the text of scripture.

    In 1thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ RISE FIRST".

    In 1Thess 4 "We who ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN are CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the air"

    The chapter could hardly be more devastating to your view.

    You cling to your traditions in Spite of the text of scripture - not Because of it.

    ===========================

    Ed -
    and 1 Corin. 15 by passages which are misinterpreted as being "rapture proofs". They are no such thing. They are talking about the resurrection, those who are "dead" (that is, separated from God, which is death) and those who are still living.


    AGain - exegesis of the text shows your attempt to utterly fail.

    In 1Cor 15 CHRIST IS NOT RAISED from the dead if the dead are not raised. - Christ was not "separated from God".

    In 1Cor 15 THE OLD body DIES and the body that is raised IS NOT the one that died. This is REAL physical death and REAL physical bodies. The text is explicit. Death, resurrection, the body -- they are all literal, real and explicitly identified in the text.

    Wrenching into never-land as you attempt to do - can not be supported by sound exegesis.

    You must again - cling to your traditions "inspite" of the scripture of 1Cor 15 - not "because of it".

    Notice your own efforts here to extract yourself from the difficulties these texts present. It is obvious.

    ================================
    Ed continues

    Prior to this event, the righteous who died "in the Lord" could not go to Heaven. The sacrifice had not been done on the Cross yet, therefore, Heaven was still closed off. [/quote]

    The fairytale you spin seems to have no support in scripture - and no end.

    Paul is writing in 1Cor 15 BEFORE the destruction of Jerusalem and AFTER the cross. HE does NOT argue that "until the Jews are destroyed the dead in Christ can not go to heaven".

    Your argument is just absurd.

    There is NO statement in scripture that the NT saints were not really born-again, were not really - in fellowship with Christ, did not have "Christ In you the hope of Glory" Col 1:20 prior to 70 A.D.

    Your entire attempt to obscure the scripture on these obvious points fails even the most basic test of exegesis.

    =================================

    Rev 11:15-18 where the destruction of the world at the time when Christ returns and "THE KINGDOM of this WORLD has then BECOME the KINGDOM of our God and of His Christ" -- again -- ignored.


    Ed says
    Well, certainly. Who do you THINK is in charge now? Satan? Can't be. He was defeated on the Cross, Christ took ownership, and the Church is simply on a protracted "mopping up" campaign. Don't be decieved by what you see around you. Christ Jesus is SOVEREIGN and not the evil one.


    Rev 11 points to the destruction of the world at that time that the Kingdom BECOMES Christ's.

    The idea that the disease, death, starvation and destruction that we see on earth is "Paradise on earth with Christ in full control" is nonsense.

    Again - the words of Rev 11:15-18 show that your tradition is hopelessly at odds with the text. You cling to it "in spite" of the scripture and hope to extricate yourself from the problem by findind another "word" to hang your hopes on - hoping it will turn the chapter on it's head.

    Bob said
    Vast sections of scripture have to be "ignored" and WHY? Because the RCC "needed" to pin the PREDICTED failures identified in the NT on "the Jews" to avoid the obvious problems those predicted failures point out with Catholicism.

    And until the mid-1800's a great deal of Protestantism had not yet figured that out.

    But - now - Protestantism has pretty much gotten back on track with the NT church's early teaching on the premillenial literal second coming of Christ in the exact sequence we see laid out in Rev CHAPTERS 19, 20 and 21.



    Ed asks
    Have you EVER actually STUDIED the Preterist view? (and I DON'T mean a cursory glance at it -- I mean SERIOUSLY STUDY) or is your position that the Premil view is right and you will defend it to your dying breath without ever considering anything else?


    You have to present at least one exegetically sound argument from some place - otherwise what is there to "hold on to" - the say-so of the RCC??

    Your approach requires a complete corruption of each chapter we have looked at AND you have not even gotten to the ENTIRE CHAPTER sequences of Rev 19,20,21 that are CONSISTENT with the models of 1Cor 15, 1Thess 4, John 14, 2Peter 3 SHOWING the destruction of the world at the 2nd coming in Chapter 19 - SHOWING the real resurrection of the righteous in 20 at the START of the millenium and SHOWING the the WICKED are those that are raised AFTER the thousand years.

    By your own tradition - you were born AFTER the 70AD event - that means there is only one other resurrection for you in Rev 20 - that of the wicked.

    Why on earth would anyone want to jump into that pot of fire?? Your view is hopelessly mired in contradiction after contradiction of the obvious statements in the text. You will need to "re-translate" all of the NT to get your view to find support in the text.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    CatholicConvert:
    You need to learn to do comparative word studies instead of listening to Jack Van Impe.

    I doubt VERY SERIOUSLY that Bob got his ideas from Jack Van Impe.

    VERY SERIOUSLY
     
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