millinial salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by pastor joe, Jan 12, 2005.

  1. pastor joe

    pastor joe
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    would like to get your thoughts on how aperson is saved in the millinial reign of christ .if salvation is by grace through faith (eph.2:8) what happens when faith becomes sight? (heb.11:1&rom.8:24-25) thanks ,pastor joe.
     
  2. rjprince

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    For the Apostles, their faith became sight. More later.
     
  3. av1611jim

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    pastor joe;
    I would say it will be the same as ever before. Faith demonstrated by obedience.
    More and more in my walk these days, I am finding that I cannot escape the clear admonitions of Scirpture that if you do not obey, then you are none of His. I am not saying that occasional misdeeds would cast you out. What I am saying is basically that same as Jesus said. "Why call ye me Lord, and do not the things I say?"

    God asked that of ancient Israel, He aksed that of the men who heard Jesus, and He asks that of us today. How can we say we love Him if we do not obey and trust Him?

    I think it will be the same in the Millenial Reign. We do it by faith. they will do it by sight. Nevertheless, it amounts to the same thing. Trust and obey.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  4. trailblazer

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    There will be "no one saved during the millinium" because Christ's own words dispute the Rapture "theory" conclusively!
    End of story! [​IMG] The saints go up...and the unsaved go down on the same day :mad:
     
  5. Daniel David

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    Actually trailblazer, you are simply arguing against classical dispy teaching. That hardly emcompasses the entire realm of premillenial theology. The timing of the rapture has nothing to do with Christ reigning on the earth. Sorry, try mixing a little theology into your theories.
     
  6. trailblazer

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    “The timing of the rapture has nothing to do with Christ reigning on the earth?? Try reading scripture! It is CHRIST who gave us the scripture, and he says that ALL the following events will happen ”ON THE SAME DAY!” SO” WILL IT BE “ON” “THE DAY” (same event too?) when the Son of man is revealed” of which the judment is obviously at the same time if you take his words seriously enough! (Luke 17:22)

    You simply cannot intellectually say that a Rapture, a 1,000 year millennium and the judgment all happen on the same day! It is twisting scripture to say other than that Christ meant what he says!

    There will be "no one saved during the millinium" because Christ's own words dispute the Rapture "theory" conclusively!

    The Pharisees in verse 20 had just asked “when the kingdom of God was coming” and then he proceeded to tell his disciples the following concerning his second (and only) coming:

    End of story! [​IMG] The saints go up...and the unsaved go down on the same day :mad: You say…“Sorry, try mixing a little theology into your theories?” I say, try actually ready the words of Christ!!! He developed “the theology Himself. Do you deny or accept Christ’s words?

    *************************************************
    :confused:
     
  7. rjprince

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    Trailblazer,

    Re Luke 17, interesting how you put the “s” in verse 26 in parenthesis. Did you think we would not notice that it was plural not singular - en tais hmerais (h=eta). Days (plural) also appears in verse 22.

    In any case, let’s look at the passage starting with v. 24

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

    The second coming will be a “global event” from one part under heaven to the other part under heaven.

    25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

    Jesus must die first.

    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    Life was going on as usual when the flood came. It will be going on as usual when Christ returns in judgement upon unbelievers.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    Same idea as with Noah, life as normal, then comes judgement.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    Jesus will come on a set day. His coming will be in one day.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    Lots wive looked back to the city with longing and was judged. If they are to escape judgment on that day, they must not turn back to the city.

    32 Remember Lot’s wife.
    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    Covered this on another thread, but when judgement comes, you do not want to be taken. You want to be left. After the flood, everyone else was dead. Noah and his family was left. After the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot and his daughters were left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

    After the judgement that accompanies His second coming, the vultures will eat the flesh of those judged.

    NONE OF THIS IN ANY WAY DISCOUNTS OR DISCREDITS PREMILLENNIALISM!!!

    I ask, does 3 singular uses of “day”, minus 2 plural uses of “days”, leaving us with only 1 net use of day still have the same impact? Pardon my silliness for a moment. I have lowered my hermeneutical practices to a substandard level for a moment to make a point.

    The fact that Jesus will return on one set day, to which I readily assent, in no way indicates that all the events of the “day of the Lord” will occur on one day! Just check out every instance of “day of the Lord” to realize the folly of your contention from Luke 17. Here are the 27 occurrences of the phrase in the AV – Isa 2:12; 13:6, 9; Jer 46:10; Ezek 13:5; 30:3; Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31; 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad 1:15; Zeph 1:7, 8, 14, 18; 2:2, 3; Zech 14:1; Mal 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1Cor 5:5; 2Cor 1:14; 1Thes 5:2; 2Pet 3:10.

    Some of the events occurred at Pentecost. Some of the events of the Day of the Lord have yet to occur.

    DID WANT TO POINT OUT A SERIOUS ERROR IN YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE PASSAGE.

    Here is the fundamental flaw, THERE IS NO MENTION OF RESURRECTION HERE!!! IN FACT, THEIR ACTIVITY PRECLUDES SUCH A READING INTO THE TEXT – “grinding together” and “in the field”. How do you get resurrection out of this?

    If this is resurrection, what is meant by not going back into the house to get his stuff?

    Your ludicrous interpretation of this passage is totally without foundation.
     
  8. mountainrun

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    It is a common misconception, I have even seen it in Lifeway material, that Luke 17:34-35 speaks of the rapture.
    If you consider the timing of this event, I would make no sense for Jesus to remove his saints when he is about to set up his earthly kingdom.
    It is the unrighteous who shall not enter it and will be taken away. Like in the days of Noah.
    Further, if we say that no one is saved during the Millenial reign, it must follow that everyone who is born in that 1000 year period is condemned to hell.

    People will still have the choice to accept or reject Him. Many will reject him. Their number will be as the "sands on the seashore."
    {Rev. 20:8}

    MR
     
  9. trailblazer

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    He isn't going to set up an earthly kingdom..."My kingdom is not of this world."(?verse)
     
  10. trailblazer

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    RJ

    The Fourfold Gospel,

    17:30 after the same manner shall it be in the day that the Son of man is revealed.

    The coming of Christ shall be a like surprise to the people of the last day (Matt 24:44; Lu 12:39; 1 Thess 5:2;
    2 Peter 3:10; Re 3:3; Re 16:15), and it shall be a day of like punishment (2 Thess1:6-10).

    17:37 And they answering say unto him, Where, Lord1?…

    The disciples desired to know where this manifestation and division would take place, looking upon it as a local prediction.

    37…And he said unto them, Where the body [is], thither will the eagles also be gathered together. Jesus gave a proverbial answer, the meaning of which is that sin courts and draws to itself punishment and destruction just as a carcass draws winged scavengers. Applying his words, we may say that as the corruption of the antediluvians drew upon them, the devastation of the flood, and as the crimes of the Sodomites called down upon them, the fires from heaven, and as the unbelief of the Jews of Christ's day caused the destruction of Jerusalem and the death of the nation, so the wickedness of the men of the last times will result in the ending of the world..

    So far, all indicate "THESE EVENTS OF PUNISHMENT FOR THE WICKED AND REWARD FOR THE SAINTS" are precisely what I was getting out of it!!!!
     
  11. rjprince

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    Blazer,

    Fourfold Gospel? What? I am not connecting with anything specific here. Pardon my missing it, but I do read alot, not all of it sticks.

    Do not see how you get “local prediction” out of the text. Show me.

    I certainly see nothing “proverbial” about His answer. NOR DO I SEE ANYTHING IN THE PASSAGE THAT LIMITS ITS FULFILLMENT TO AD 70! On what TEXTUAL basis do you impose such limitations?

    Granted, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was localized. The FLOOD was not! Or do you hold to “local flood” only for Genesis? Of course that begs the question, if the flood was local how can you hold to a global judgement at the end of the world?

    Still did not see “resurrection” as you claimed. Do you want to reword or retract that part of your statement? It is allowed. I have done so on other threads on occasion, and I am sure I will be found to be in error again. It is that weakness of the flesh and the mind thing. Sometimes it is a struggle just to remember what day it is! Occupied with more important questions and all that...
     
  12. trailblazer

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    so the wickedness of the men of the last times will result in the ending of the world..

    There is no pre-mil here.
     
  13. rjprince

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    I did not grant that! Did you see -- I certainly see nothing “proverbial” about His answer.

    OK. I did not challenge that specifically. There will be a "final wickedness of men" that will result in the "end of the world". It follows the 1000 years.


    Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    There is pre-mil HERE!
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    IF the Greek says "aeon" then it means "age";
    if the Greek says "cosmos" then it
    means "physical world".
    Go check your source.

    BTW, Matthew 24:3 says "aeon" in the greek.

    The age ends at the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection. The physcial
    world ends some time after the
    Millinnial Kingdom of Christ.
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Is He not God that that
    He can do both?

    There is an eternal Kingdom of God within
    the saved of this age.
    There is temporal Kingdom of God, the
    Millinnial Kingdom of Christ to be set
    up after the second Coming of Christ
    (see Revelation 20 about this).
    There is an eternal Kingdom of God
    that begins after the destruction of
    the old heavens and earth.

    We Christians now will be in all three.
     
  16. av1611jim

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    Is He not God that that
    He can do both?

    There is an eternal Kingdom of God within
    the saved of this age.
    There is temporal Kingdom of God, the
    Millinnial Kingdom of Christ to be set
    up after the second Coming of Christ
    (see Revelation 20 about this).
    There is an eternal Kingdom of God
    that begins after the destruction of
    the old heavens and earth.

    We Christians now will be in all three.
    </font>[/QUOTE]_________________________________________________

    It has been a long while since I could agree with Ed! :eek:
    This is that one time. With one exception. It has been covered on other threads, I will mention it in passing.
    The Millenial Kingdom is not gauranteed for ALL Christians. It is only for those who "overcome", are found faithful, obedient to King Jesus, etc, in THIS age. That is the reward.
    But, nevertheless, the other things he said, I agree with. THAT is promised.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    Trialblazer is right. I agree with him.

    There is no another chance salvation for people once when after Christ comes to earth.

    Right now, we are in this present age. Apostle Paul tells us in 2 Cor. 6:2 "(For he saith, I have heard thee in a TIME accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, NOW is the accepted time; behold, NOW is the DAY of salvation.)"

    He tells us, it is time now for everyone to believe the gospel, and repentance.

    Jeremiah 8:20 "The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved."

    We know when the summer is ended, and the time of harvest comes, all crops being gathering together.

    Same with the picture of Matthew 13:28-30; 38-43 telling us, when the end of the world arrives as Jesus Christ returns with his angels, there shall be the harvest of the world, all unbelievers shall be taken away right away immediately.

    Matt. 25:1-12 tells us, the parable of the ten virgins. Five wise virginbs with oil, five foolish virgins without oil. When the midnight comes, the five wise virgins with oil, are already prepared and ready, the five fool virgins without oil, are not prepared and not ready. When their bridegroom comes, the five wise virgins are ready to go enter to meet bridegroom, while other five fool virgins without oil, are not ready, when the door closed, they ran to the door, and knock it, begging bridegroom to open it. The bridegroom says to them, "Vrily I say unto you, I know you NOT."

    This parable gives us the picture of the thief in the night, people who are watch and ready, shall not be grab or taken up in the thief, that means they are walking right with the Lord daily, and watch for their Lord faithfully. Others who are not watch and not ready, means they are not repent of their sins, and remain in wicked, and playing fool around. When once Lord comes suddenly like as thief in the night, He shall send his angels to take all unbelievers away(Matt. 24:40-41), they shall be shocked and not be aware of. There will be TOOOOOOO LATE for them to have other opporunity chance of repentence of their sins and salvation.

    Same with the flood. Once, Lord shut the door of Ark, rain started to fall, I am sure, people might ran toward the door of Ark, and knocking it so hard, yell and begging to open the door to enter Ark. But, it was toooooo late for them to have other chance of their repentance. Rain suddenly took them all away and died. SO.. it shall be same at Christ's coming - Matt. 24:37,39; and Luke 17:30.

    There is no single passage of 'a thousand years' find anywhere in the Bible telling us, there shall be another chance of salvation for anyone - ONCW when after Christ comes, ALL unbelievers shall be take away right away immediately, it is the picture of 'thief in the night'.

    'Thief in the night' is not so called, 'pretrib rapture'. This is talk about horrible punishment fall upon all unbelievers, and to destroy them all away immediately.

    Flood is same as thief in the night, when the flood came, and it took them all away right away immediately, there is no one survived beyond flood, same at Christ's coming.

    When, Christ comes with his angels, then, there is NO MORE opporunity salvation or repentance for people - 2 Cor. 6:2 & 2 Peter 3:7-10.

    Our opporunity of salvation have been open to the world for past nearly 2,000 years since after Calvary, it is pretty so very long time, and there is so plenty time for anyone to repent and believe the gospel. Once when Jesus Christ comes with his angels, then the opporunity of salvation is finished, and time for the judgment come upon all people of the world.

    Conclusion: There is not a single find anywhere in the Bible teaching us, there shall be another opporunity of salvation for anyone, once when after Christ comes with his angels, Christ tells us, when He shall come, He shall send his angels to take all unbelievers away into everlasting fire right away immediately, there shall not be one left to survived beyond the judgement day.

    Same with pre-flood period. I believe Noah warned to people about the flood, he commanded them to repent of their sins and believe the gospel. Noah have been preaching to them for 120 years. That was so long time, and there was so plenty time for them to have opporunity time to repentance of thier sins. Also, when after all animals enter the Ark. The door of Ark was remain open for seven days, God was waiting for anyone to come enter into the Ark, but after seven days past, no one enter the Ark. SO, Gos shut the door of Ark, and rain pour upon the world. I am sure, people might ran toward the door of Ark, and knock it so hard, and yell beg for open it to enter. But, it was too late for them, all were drowned and doomed to hell.

    2 Cor. 6:2 tells us, we are now in this present age, that the gospel is still opporunity for everyone to repent, it have been given them the opporunity for nearly 2,000 years after Calvary, it is so long time. But, when once Christ comes, then the opporunity of salvation will be finished, time for the judgement day fall upon all the world. There shall be no other chance for them to repent -Matt. 25:10-12.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    Thank you Brother DeafPosttrib for your
    excellent damnation of Preterism. They believe
    that (at least spiritually) the Lord
    has returned. IF the Lord had returned
    in the first century (1AD - 100AD), then
    there would be no salvation for us in
    the 21st century (2001-2100).
     
  19. trailblazer

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    Uhhh! Ed, I think he was talking about Dispensationalism! :rolleyes:
    Ed, think for a minute about what you just said! If you say that there is no salvation for people AFTER the Lord RETURNS, how can you hold onto Darby's dispy theory of salvation for anyone AFTER your Rapture occurs???? :D

    Why, I think you just disproved your own theory!!! Is this a "goodbye Darby" - "hello Christ" awakening for you????

    [​IMG]
     
  20. trailblazer

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    av1611jim,

    AV...You asked this question;"Is He not God that that He can do both?"

    My answer? God can do anything he wants to do! However, God does NOT contradict Himself! If Jesus Himself said; "My Kingdom is not of this world. If my Kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight..."

    We must start taking Christ's OWN words more seriously than some on this board do. I fear for the consequences of those who choose to follow the words of "another Christ" (?) like Darby, Scofield, LaHaye etc...
     

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