Miracles the Holy Spirit & Jesus Christ ,the error of cessation

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  1. Jesusmyfriend

    Jesusmyfriend
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    Supernatural Healing and the Manifest Gifts of the Holy Spirit - Introduction


    Acts 8:14-17

    The apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had received the word of God, so they sent Peter and John to them. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the believers that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Holy Spirit had not yet come down on any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

    If you are a strong believer who has never experienced the tangible power of the Holy Spirit, fear not! It happened in the early church as well. In this event discussed in Acts 8 above it is clear that these from Samaria had faith. It had nothing to do with their unbelief, it had to do with their understanding and God's timing. Notice that in Acts 8:16 the scripture makes it clear they believed, even to the point of being baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. But even so, these mentioned in Acts 8 had not yet experienced the tangible power of God's Holy Spirit.

    It states in Acts 8:16 that the Holy Spirit had not come upon any of them. So brothers and sisters and all visiting, if you have not yet experienced this type of touch from Jesus, fear not. Jesus' timing is always perfect. I hope today is that perfect time Jesus has appointed for you. I hope what you read here will bless you and help you receive this Mighty and Wonderful promise from Jesus Christ.

    The debates ....

    Many of today's churches are debating whether or not the Holy Spirit still manifests in a tangible way like the first century Christians experienced. Before I say anything else let me say this, we must open our hearts our bibles and our intellect. Most of all we must pray.

    Many that will read this already have preconceived, or preconditioned opinions. This is not a problem unless you become unwilling to read the following scriptures because of those positions. I am not trying to change anyone's mind by my opinion, but I am trying to reveal what I have found in scripture to be sound doctrine. This of course without saying is open to anyone's debate, but let us reason from the Word. My intention is only to bless and hopefully promote a better understanding of this Gift, called the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also very much a person, for the scripture declares, "For Christ is that Spirit." This means emotions, will and intellect.

    Since I can do nothing without the Lord Jesus, at least not perfectly, I pray the King of Kings would become your teacher fresh by the power of his Holy Spirit. In his mighty name, THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, I ask him for this with all of my heart. I praise him for it and for his grace and shed blood that makes it possible to receive it.

    In answer to the question of whether or not the Holy Spirit still manifests miracles, signs and wonders is hundred percent yes. Before we go any further lets talk about those churches that teach that the Holy Spirit no longer does or manifests tangible miracles. This doctrine is called cessation. In other words ceased, or stopped.

    These teachers believe all miracles ceased after the first century church was established. Now this is the scripture below they used to develop this doctrine in 1st Corinthians 13:8-10. Lets look at this scripture now.

    13:8-10 8 Love never ends; as for prophecies they
    will pass away; as for tongues, they will
    cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
    9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy
    is imperfect; 10 but when perfect
    comes, the imperfect will pass away.

    Here we see prophecies, tongues and knowledge passes away, or ceases. The condition for it to cease by those that teach this doctrine based it on the portion of scripture that states: "When perfect comes." Of course this perfect is represented by Jesus Christ coming and dying on the cross 2,000 years ago. This is well and good and would be fine without debate if it was not for verse 10 also contained in this scripture. However verse 10 is the balance beam. In Verse 10 it says that when perfect comes, the imperfect shall pass away.

    So the question one must ask is this:

    Has the imperfect of the world, such as the nonbelievers passed away yet? Read verse 10 again and think about it, it is obvious that when perfect comes the imperfect pass away. Since this has not yet happened this very same scripture proves that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have not yet ceased. Those that teach that they have base their doctrine on "when perfect comes" the first time. Verse 10 in this same scripture makes it very clear it is the second coming of Jesus when these gifts are no longer required, or cease. This also makes logical sense as well. Jesus said: "I will not leave you desolate, I will send you the Holy Spirit to comfort, teach ect.

    Some Bible teachers like replace the word perfect, with the word maturity. This is just another denial of the obvious but let's look at their point of view for a moment. To teachers and pastors reading who prefer to use the word maturity rather than the word perfect, then here is a question for you.

    If we as a body are mature *the church* then why does it say in scripture our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect. *See verse 9 above* Is there any person, teacher, or pastor reading today that can claim they have perfect knowledge? Is there any here today that can say they have been so perfected by the Holy Spirit, that they can say they have the mind of Christ as Apostle Paul talked about. Friends keep in mind even "IF" these teachers were correct, not all in the church has yet reached that maturity. Most are still are operating in the very basics of the faith.

    Since the scriptures states we are all baptized into one body, and by one spirit, and since we are all members of that body, then I can only logically conclude since all in the body are NOT yet mature, then the gifts are still are in operation just as they were in the first century.

    Also the scripture states when maturity comes the imperfect shall pass away. The word "OUR" which is plural is used in these scriptures. So agian we are talking about the body of Christ with many persons.

    Something else to consider, Jesus said flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. With that in mind remember also what Paul taught conserning Rapture, he said; "for corruption [mortality] must put on incorruption [imortality]" speaking of our new body. So based on these considered together in their proper context I must conclude the word "perfect" is the proper usage in this scripture, not maturity. In either case the gifts have not ceased.

    The body of Christ Jesus as a whole is far from maturity, so even based on these teachers point of view *replacing the word perfect with maturity* I can only conclude all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation and are needed more than ever in the church. Not to mention there are many other gifts of the Spirit that do not manifest in such obvious supernatural ways, such as teaching, encouragement, faith, giving and the like. Have these gifts ceased as well because the church is now mature as some teachers proclaim? Of course not. Not to mention knowledge has not yet ceased has it? Remember the word knowledge from 1 Cor 13:8-10. If perfect has come or maturity as some teach, then why do we still have knowledge ? Here is that scripture agian, notice knowledge passes away according to this scripture. When does this knowledge pass away? When perfect comes. I hope all see the logic of this point. Here is the scripture. 1st Corinthians 13:8-10

    13:8-10 8 Love never ends; as for prophecies they
    will pass away; as for tongues, they will
    cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
    9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy
    is imperfect; 10 but when perfect
    comes, the imperfect will pass away.

    Lets now look at the Book of Acts

    Acts 2:38-39

    38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him.

    Notice here the Gift of the Holy Spirit is for you and to your children and to all that are far off. Read verse 39 again. Notice it states; "and to all that are far off." Who are those that are far off? These that are far off are those persons the Lord calls from every generation, including this one. Notice this scripture says, "Everyone whom the Lord our God calls to him. Well, the first thing a person is called of the Lord is: salvation by confession of sins and repentance of sins. So WHOEVER is called of God through Jesus Christ accepts the gift of grace provided by Jesus paying our price on the Cross. If you accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior then YOU ARE CALLED of God. If you are called of God then the promise of verse 39 applies to you. SIMPLE isn't it? :)

    Now for clarity, I am not talking about a limited gift of the Holy Spirit, I am talking about the same power and presence of the Holy Spirit as is recorded in the book of Acts during the 1st Century Church. This includes miracle healing to your body. God still heals based on his grace and free gift, [not good works] accept God's promise of healing in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ.

    So what about those people that have believed in Jesus but have never felt the tangible presence of the Spirit? One reasons among many I would like to discuss is the one we just talked about. Those who have been taught that miracles have ceased are not in a position to receive from Jesus this gift. If Jesus does not correct them first, then most would become fearful when God's power started touching them. Especially if God had to remove a bondage first before filling them with peace.

    Before I cover some of the other reasons lets talk about some of the ways the Holy Spirit touches a person. It is almost impossible to perfectly describe how it feels when the Holy Spirit touches a person tangibly, but it is possible to give a basic foundation.

    WHEN TOUCHED FOR HEALING:

    Usually you will feel extreme heat all over your body. Then after a few minutes, most will feel a wonderful and supernatural peace from the Lord Jesus Christ. You will know when this happens, it feels so Wonderful. It's like heaven on Earth. You will know when this happens and you will have zero doubt. You will know it is the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ touching you. It is supernatural and Holy brothers and sisters. The Holy One Jesus Christ.

    Sometimes you will feel a wind first. Really !!!! just, like a real wind or lightly swirling breeze, even in a completely closed room. Sometimes you will feel like a warm blanket of energy wrapped around your entire body. When this happens it is like supernatural clothing. It feels like a part of you, perfectly.

    Sometimes you will smell a heavenly Jasmine, or other wonderful fragrances. You will know this smell is heavenly and Holy when it manifests in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. If you ever smell these wonderful fragrances you are having an extra special visit from the Lord Jesus. :) You will know without any doubt when you smell them. :)

    DELIVERANCE

    Deliverance from demons, or bondage's such as drugs, hearing voices, mental illness, fear, or other unpleasant things of this nature.

    When demons, or bondage's, or generational sins are broken you will feel a trembling in your body. Fear not, that's not you trembling but the demon, or bondage the Holy Spirit is beginning to break. Sometimes this will go on for hours, so fear not but rejoice and trust Jesus. Sometimes you'll cry for days as well as the Lord releases your heart from pain and bitterness.

    Lack of trust is one of the other reasons many don't feel the power of the Holy Spirit. They are afraid Jesus will not protect them from demons, or other evil powers. Even though Jesus did promise to protect them, and never leave them.

    Most Christians are fearful of being deceived by false prophets or teachers, this is healthy. But if you do not have the Holy Spirit teaching you, then it might not be wise to trust even yourself if the Holy Spirit is not manifesting tangible power in your life. We without Jesus' help are our own worst enemies. This help is the tangible anointing and power of the Holy Spirit.

    Here are some of the other reasons many Christians don't feel the power of the Holy Spirit. The biggest one is many do not understand the finished work of the Cross of Jesus. Remember, Jesus said on the Cross, "IT IS FINISHED" What did he mean? The Clue, the veil in the Jewish temple was torn from one end to the other. This was a giant veil, hundreds of feet. All righteousness by the Law of Moses is finished. Not abolished, in respect to those who reject Jesus, but finished and fulfilled by Jesus on behalf of those who accept him and his gift of Salvation. This is what Jesus meant when he said "It's Finished." Grace was established, and forgiveness of sins by a new covenant paid for by THE BLOOD and LOVE of JESUS CHRIST.

    The Jewish temple represented the first covenant and the Law of God. The Cross and blood of Jesus paid for our sins according to the first covenant which none of us ever kept, or presently keeps perfectly. To us it is offered as a gift, based on grace.

    Grace defined: Pardon, Gift, unearned, unmerited, favor with God.

    Now my point is this, when a person accepts JESUS' GIFT of SALVATION, this person accepts it based on Jesus's finished work and shed blood for them at the Cross.

    No one ever gets saved by their own good merits. This is true before, during and after accepting the free gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ.

    What happens to many is they accept Jesus Christ, but sometimes some weakness, sin, or problem remains after accepting Jesus. Or it returns after a season of backsliding away from Jesus. This in turn makes this son, or daughter of God feel unworthy and guilty. This unworthy attitude usually produces fear, or doubt, but most of all it separates them from prayer to God. They are afraid to ask God for anything, let alone the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Or they don't pray with faith, believing God still loves them. FEAR NOT !!!!!!!! Jesus still loves you more than you can imagine. Do not believe the lie of the fallen ones, or even your own mind should it cause you to doubt God's love in Jesus Christ. Jesus will NEVER stop loving you. Jesus said, "It is Finished" He finished it for you. Do not doubt his love because of some weakness, or serious sin you keep commiting. Ask him to wash it and to forgive you again, HE WILL !! He will forgive regardless of how many times you may have failed, or sinned. If you got the strength to ask him again, surely Jesus Christ has the strength to listen and forgive you agian. Even if it's for the same thing for the 1,116 time. Jesus said; "He, or she that is forgiven much, loveth much". FEAR NOT, talk to him, he loves you. I mean you !!!!!!!

    Brothers and sisters and all, listen to me PLEASE, even if your flesh, or your mind is not yet perfected, if you accepted Jesus Christ based on his finished work and received it as a Gift, then you are forgiven and your soul is white as snow because of the blood Jesus Shed for you. You Accept the Gift of the Holy Spirit exactly the same way, AS A GIFT bought and paid for by Jesus Christ. Ask, the Holy Spirit right now in the name of Jesus if this is true. Some of you are feeling the power of the Holy Spirit for the first time right now.

    The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, God the Father is a person. He is as much your Lord and Savior as he is your best friend. Do not be overwhelmed with fear, or doubt because of your sins or weakness in the flesh. Jesus understands your pain, I don't care how many times you failed or sinned the same sin over and over.

    Ask Jesus Christ to touch you right now with the Power of his Holy Spirit. Only Jesus Christ and his grace and power can set you free. He said come to me all you who are heavy laden and I shall give you rest. Well, a modern term for heavy laden is simply, burned out, or overwhelmed.

    The rest Jesus is talking about is not natural rest, but supernatural rest. As Jesus said and His word declares, Peace I give to you not as the world gives. Jesus said, NOT AS THE WORLD GIVES. Satan is of the World that is why he uses drugs to alter a persons state of mind. That is the best Satan can do in the peace department. False peace with drugs and addictions. Satan cannot give supernatural peace in anyway, shape, or form. Satan always uses external devices of the natural. If Satan could counterfeit Jesus' peace, then Satan would never use drugs. Only Jesus can give Holy supernatural peace, so fear not.

    Jesus gives the peace that surpasses knowledge, full of Glory and truth and most of all Love.

    You need to also remember, Jesus sometimes makes you perfect through your weaknesses, then comes the victory. The victory comes the minute Jesus knows that you realize that your good works, or lack of good works had nothing to do with it. It is a victory based on his free gift and love for you. It is based on HIS GRACE and HIS MERCY, not your works.

    ASK Jesus Christ to touch you tangibly right now with the Power of His Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ promised you that he would never give you a serpent, or an evil gift. So believe him !!! Ask the Father in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ for the tangible in filling of his Holy Spirit.

    Ask, Seek, Knock he is standing at the door of your heart again. Fear not, Jesus Loves you regardless of your weakness, ASK HIM !!! Remember he died so you could come without fear, he loves you and he understands.

    Sometimes God allows weakness, or some problem so you will learn to trust only his Grace, never your own good works, or your ability to keep the law of Moses. We all fall short but Jesus Gives us more grace, that's God's love to you in Jesus Christ, ACCEPT IT !!!!! He accepts you :) Let Jesus work out your weaknesses.

    QUIT TRYING to do it on your own. QUIT BEGGING GOD, he died for you and loves you. WHY WOULD A CHILD OF GOD have to BEG, only a slave begs.

    Jesus died for all that would come to him, just as they are. No conditions, just come. This is true even for those Christians who have backsliden. Jesus says Just Come. This is true for all believers or nonbelievers. Jesus Christ says, just come and I will give you rest and peace.

    This is true even for those who have argued, or cursed God during a painful trail, or the loss of a special loved one. Jesus says I know your hurting, I know your angry with me, I know it's seems that I did not answer your prayer. But I love you, just come. Someday I will explain it all and show you everything.

    Pray like a child, not like a slave in fear. Thats what God's Grace in Jesus Christ is all about, so you can come as a child in spite of your weakness, or sins.

    Do you smoke, or do you dress funny? :) Do you like to dye your hair green, or orange. Did you pierce your belly button, or your tongue?

    Jesus says just come. Jesus looks at the heart, not your looks or your past, or even your present sins or weaknesses in the flesh. He wants to bury your past FOREVER and show you wonders and blessings in your FUTURE with him. And Jesus wants to show you them today by his Holy Spirit. Not when you leave the planet to go home. But NOW !!!! Even right now for some of you, Ask Him !!!!! :)

    Holy Spirit touch them for I can do nothing by my own power without you. In the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ I ask.

    Now I would like to close with the following scriptures:

    >> Mark 9:38-39 << and >> Luke 11:11-19 <<

    Also:>> Galatians 3:1-14 Galatians 5:1-6 Galatians 6:1-3 <<

    John 14:18-27 John 15:12-17

    Last but not least is love. Without Love you cannot do anything. Pride, unforgiveness, or being judgmental will also separate you from the tangible power of the Holy Spirit. It is extremely important to love the unbelievers of the world as Jesus loved us. I'll be brief about these things, since they are so obvious. Jesus commanded us to judge not, to forgive and yes to even forgive our enemies. We were all enemies of God at some point in our life, even if you were raised a Christian. If you ever once looked down in disgust at a nonbeliever, then at that moment you were Jesus' enemy. Why, because if that person you looked at was the only person alive, Jesus would have still come and died for him, or her.

    THE POWER OF GOD'S GRACE

    Scripture study list at bottom.

    The scriptures list located at the bottom of this page are given in a particular in order. This order will help you understand THE IMPORTANCE and THE PURPOSES of God's Law to Moses and God's grace through JESUS CHRIST.

    The Holy Spirit always operates through believers by Grace. This study list if read prayerfully will help all to better understand what many Christians misunderstand about God.

    Remember: God's ultimate objective is grace to all. Don't give up if you don't understand at first, just remember GOD accepts and loves you JUST AS YOU ARE.

    Holy Spirit quicken them to ask you to help them and then ANOINT THEM with YOUR GIFT of WISDOM and UNDERSTANDING for the SCRIPTURES. I ask in the name of Jesus Christ that this GIFT would be given to all who will begin reading these following scriptures. I also ask that you would touch them Holy Spirit in a tangible way that they can feel your touch so their faith could be increased. Your will be done Father God Almighty and I thank you for it all in the NAME of your only begotten son Jesus Christ. Thank you Father for your LOVE, your patience, your MERCY and your ABUNDANT GRACE that keeps us when we make mistakes. Holy Spirit you are their teacher teach them I pray, and most of all teach them how to WALK IN LOVE, to walk in YOUR PRESENCE by your Holy Spirit.

    Remember brother and sisters all knowledge is given for the purpose of an increasing a believers understanding so he can minister God's Truth IN LOVE AND SIMPLICITY. Not all can understand the deep things of God, but all can understand LOVE. Even your pet understands love, no words necessary.

    God can do more miracles through someone with very little knowledge with an abundance of unconditional love, than he can with someone with a lot of knowledge, but only a little love.

    Even if you have only a little knowledge but have FAITH that the Holy Spirit will do the work promised, then you could say in the name of Jesus Christ rise and be healed and whoever it was spoken to would be healed.

    The only thing that the Lord Jesus wants you to do is ask and then wait for the Holy Spirit to come upon you. Remember, it's in Jesus' time not ours. Jesus decides when and who and where. BUT BE SURE TO ASK !!!!

    You must know the Spirit of Jesus Christ in a very personal way. When the anointing of the Holy Spirit comes upon you FOR HEALING you will know it. You will feel a warm sometimes hot presence on your body, especially in your hands and feet. Sometimes numbness in the hands occurs as well.

    It's like drawing on unseen resources, Holy Holy resources.

    Also you will experience an anointing upon your mouth, this is the HOLY SPIRIT HELPING you to speak the word he wishes to be spoken at that moment through you. All you have to do ask the HOLY SPIRIT in the NAME of JESUS and then WAIT. If God is ready his Holy Spirit will let you know. If a warm peaceful presence of the Holy Spirit comes then pray for that person. Don't pray for that person outloud until the Spirit comes upon you first, you can pray privately but remember the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ does the miracle, not you.

    If you pray outloud for a person before the anointing comes, then in almost all cases nothing will happen. Also most importantly Jesus Christ must receive all the credit for any miracle. The minute you take any credit for it or become self important, *PRIDEFUL* the Holy Spirit will stop working through you. LOVE, FORGIVENESS, PATIENCE, GRACE is the key to God's Power in THE NAME OF JESUS. Knowledge can never replace sincere LOVE.

    Children, young people, any age, if you feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, then ask God in the name of Jesus to touch or heal that person you're hoping for. If you do, you will see God's Spirit reward your LOVE with a miracle. REMEMBER: SALVATION IS A GIFT, it is not based on a person's good works, or the ability or lack of ability of a person to obey God. It's about asking for HIS GIFT, a gift which none of us deserve. We all fall short daily and God understands the hearts of us all, so let him alone be judge.


    Study List follows below.

    STUDY LIST / THE GRACE and LAW COVENANTS

    1) ROMANS 8:35-39
    2) ROMANS 9:31-33
    3) ROMANS 7:6-25
    4) ROMANS 8:14-17
    5) TITUS 1:1-15
    6) TITUS 3:5-9
    7) ROMANS 10:1-16
    8) ROMANS 11:2-12
    9) ROMANS 11:6
    10) ROMANS 11:29-36
    11) ROMANS 14:1-14
    12) ROMANS 14:21-23
    13) 1ST CORINTHIANS 1:26-29
    14) 1ST CORINTHIANS 2:2-13
    15) 1ST CORINTHIANS 3:1-11
    16) 1ST CORINTHIANS 4:1-5
    17) 1ST CORINTHIANS 10:23-33
    18) 1ST CORINTHIANS 15:55-57
    19) 2ND CORINTHIANS 3:5-14
    20) 2ND CORINTHIANS 3:17
    21) 2ND CORINTHIANS 4:1-7
    22) GALATIANS 2:16-21
    23) GALATIANS 3:1-29
    24) GALATIANS 4:1-31
    25) GALATIANS 5:1-6
    26) EPHESIANS 1:2-14
    27) EPHESIANS 2:5-9
    28) EPHESIANS 2:11-2
    29) COLOSSIANS 2:8-17
    30) 1ST TIMOTHY 1:1-17
    31) HEBREWS 7:11-28
    32) HEBREWS 8:1-13
    33) 1ST TIMOTHY 2:3-6
    34) ROMANS 10:9-17
     
  2. Briguy

    Briguy
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    Hi J, That was - a - quite a post there. In all honesty it was too long for one post and so you probably won't get as many responses as you may think. It would be better for you to present your arguments one at a time and then they could be addressed point by point. Anyway you wrote:

    ""Sometimes you will smell a heavenly Jasmine, or other wonderful fragrances. You will know this smell is heavenly and Holy when it manifests in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. If you ever smell these wonderful fragrances you are having an extra special visit from the Lord Jesus. [​IMG] You will know without any doubt when you smell them. [​IMG] ""

    Now this must be written in a book of the Bible I have not seen. Perhaps in the little known NT book of "Smells". Smells 3:20 maybe? ;) [​IMG] --- Sorry that was my attempt at humor, it was not meant to be disrespectful. What you wrote above is a nice thought but holds no weight in sound biblical instruction. There are many errors in your post. I may have time later to point out a few if others don't beat me to it.

    Thanks for your hard work however, I know how long the post must have taken you to write.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  3. Jesusmyfriend

    Jesusmyfriend
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    ROFL, actully the only thing you can make a case for is the book of smells. And of course you were being disrespectful. I can smell false humility a mile a way.

    I'm looking forward to your points now that we got the smells out of the way. Prove to me from scripture where it states manifest miracles have ceased from scripture. You have no case because cessation is based solely on what was discussed above and it is clearly error. But I'm waiting for your points. Go for it, show me [​IMG]

    Km
     
  4. Frank

    Frank
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    JMF:
    Biblical miracles are no longer present because the purpose for which they were performed has been fulfilled. John writes, in John 20:30,31, And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. The written miracles of the Bible were to form faith by his word. Romans 10:17 says, so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If biblical miracles were to continue, John would have said just keep looking around you will see one.

    Miracles were done in the presence of non-believers to confirm the message to be proclaimed. In Mark 16:16-20 the Bible says, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
    18  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
    19  ¶So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
    20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

    The believer was to confirm his message with miraculous power. Vs. 20. Paul affirms the message of Christ in II Cor. 12:12 in that passage the Bible says, Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
    Examples of Paul's mighty signs and deeds are found in the raising of Eutychus from the dead in Acts 20:9,10. The Bible says And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
    10  And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
    Paul was bitten by a deadly venomous viper in Acts 28:3-6, in these passages the Bible says,3  And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
    4  And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
    5  And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
    6  Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
    Men today do not confirm their message by raising the dead, going unscathed by deadly vipers. Why?

    Men today do not have what the apostles had. If they did, they could do waht they did. The miraculous power was promised to the apostles. John 16:13, Luke 24:44-51. It was received on Pentecost in Jerusalem. Joel 2;28, Acts 2:1-4, 17, 38,39. This promise was for and received by the Gentiles and for all those who the apostles gave the power to through the laying on of hands. Acts 8:12-18;10:44-48.

    Jesus never intended for the miraculous age to continue until his return as the inspired men of God anticiapted the ending of this age. I Cor. 13:8-10. In fact, the word perfect you site is from the greek word teleios meaning complete. This word CANNOT represent Christ as it is in the neuter gender. If Christ were in view, the word would be in the masculine gender of Andros. Therefore, it is a grammatical and contextual error to assert this is a reference to Christ.

    Furthermore, It cannot be a reference to heaven as the plain teachings of Eph. 3: 8-14 prevent this interpretation. The Bible says in these verses, 8  Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9  (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10  He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
    11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    Note if I Cor. 13:10 and the word perfect is a refernce to Heaven itself, then the false implications would be the following:

    1. There will be deceit in heaven. vs. 14.
    2. There will be every wind of doctrine in heaven. vs. 14.
    3.There will be spiritual imperfection in heaven. vs.13,14.
    Finally, the text of I Cor. 13:8-10, indicates the anticipation the ending of the miraculous age while men are still in the flesh and active. see I Cor. 11,12.

    If miracles are for today, then the ones who claim to have them should be able to prove it in the presence of those who do not believe. Furthermore, if they had the Biblical power, they could raise the dead, drink poison , be bitten by deadly serpents, and heal the sick so that they recover. Mark 16:17-20,Luke 10:17,19, Mat. 10:1-8.

    In short, if men today had the miraculous power of the first century, they could do what they did in the first century. However, this is not the case. If you know of someone who has this power, please ask him to contact me. I would be more than happy to meet them at a grave yard for a raising of the dead ceremony!
     
  5. Briguy

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    Hi J, Seriously, I meant no disrespect, I want you to be sure of that.

    Please read the KJV of the very first verses you used from Acts 8: 14: Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
    15: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    16: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    17: Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. "

    A careful reading can see that it is likely the people here were not believers. They had heard of Jesus and wanted to be baptized but weren't believers until Peter and John spoke and prayed with them.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  6. DHK

    DHK
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    JMF,
    You have totally misrepresented the cessationist point of view, and in that area you don't seen to know what you are talking about.

    Coming from your own point of view you rely more on your own emotional experiences rather than the Word of God. If we do not have the Word of God as our foundation every experience you might have is bogus.
    DHK
     
  7. Briguy

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    J. You used these verses.

    13:8-10 8 Love never ends; as for prophecies they
    will pass away; as for tongues, they will
    cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

    Are you aware that the verb in Greek used in relation to when tongues will end is different then the verb used for the other two. The verb used for tongues means that they will fizzle out on their own. Nothing happeens to them they just go away. As for P and K they will pass away when that which is perfect comes. They end at different times. More to come!

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  8. Jesusmyfriend

    Jesusmyfriend
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    No I have not, if you would like me to refer you to numerous sites on what cessation is, or partial cessation and it's history, where it started and so forth I would be glad show you. But first I'd like to hear you point of view. What is your cessation point of view and how to you defend your doctrines based on scripture.
     
  9. Jesusmyfriend

    Jesusmyfriend
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    Brian your reading your opinion into the text. The text is clear "only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" They had been baptized in Jesus' name long before Peter and John even heard of them.

    By the way this is not the original text, you should read it from the original greek, for your translator has a cessationist slant. Either way: "only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus" So even in this lousy translation it shows they had been baptized long before Peter and John arrived. You do not get baptized unless you believe.
     
  10. Jesusmyfriend

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    Since most of your point is just your opinion I will just deal with the above. First of all Jesus said about those in heaven that they are neither male no female but like the angels and are not given in marriage. So neither is Christ male or female in the fullness of the Spirit. That takes care of the Andros argument. Now for teleios. This word mdepending on the translator means the following:

    TELEIOS


    TRANSLATIONS

    Let us consider how four translations of the NT have translated TELEIOS (an adjective) and TELIOO (a verb).
    1. The American Standard Version- perfect, man, full-age, full-grown.
    2. The King James Version- perfect
    3. The New King James Version- perfect, mature
    4. The New American Standard Version- complete

    Various translations on TELIOO- consecrate, finish, fulfill, make perfect.

    DEFINTIONS

    Now to see what four Greek lexicographers have to say.

    1. Thayer- "... brought to its end, finished; wanting nothing; perfect.., of men, full-grown, adult, mature..." The verb: "1. to carry through completely; to bring to an end. 2. i.e. add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full. 3. to bring to the proposed goal..."

    2. Vincent- (I Cor. 2:6): "... them that are full-grown.... see Eph. 4:13 where a perfect man is contrasted with children... also I Cor. 14:20: where the word men 'is lit. perfect..."

    3. Barclay- "TELEIOS has a physical sense; it describes an animal or a person who is full-grown and who has reached the height of physical development. It also has a mental sense. It describes a person who has progressed beyond the rudimentary instruction and is now a mature student. This is the sense which Paul uses in I Cor. 2:6..."

    4. Vine- "... It is used 1. of persons, (a) primarily of physical development, but also (b) of goodness without reference to maturity...a spiritual maturity or completeness, Mt. 19:21. 2. of things, complete or perfect, Rom. 12:2 and I Cor, 13:10..."

    *******

    Now who's right here, it does not matter really because regardless of the correct usage of the word teleios above the church is not even at the weakest of the four definitions shown above. The gifts are firmly in operation according to scripture, what is lacking is faith for these gifts. Your are in error sir.

    [ July 15, 2003, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Jesusmyfriend ]
     
  11. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Our missionaries at the Franciscan University of Steubenville have seen and experienced the blind coming to sight, the lame walking, satanic tongues, angelic tongues, the multiplication of the loaves (with the Eucharist, specifically), and numerous other supernatural phenomenon - both miracles as well as the charismatic gifts. In fact, just last month, a family with whom I am friends witnessed the Eucharist shine as if it were golden during the Eucharistic celebration when the priest was elevating the host after the consecration. This happened at the cathedral in downtown Steubenville, Ohio.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK
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    You can quote 12 different sites and get 12 different opinions concerning cessationism. Even Briguy and I differ on some things. But the positions that you quote are far removed from what we believe.
    What do I believe? What the Scriptures teach.

    1Cor.13:8-13
    8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    There are three groups of gifts that are contrasted here: permanent, semi-permanent, and temporary. Verses 8 and 13 give us the only permanent gift: love. "Love never fails." "But the geatest of these is love." Love alone will endure forever. Love is the greatest gift; it will last forever.
    But what about faith and hope? They are not permanent gifts such as love, but rather semi-permanent gifts, for they will not last forever.
    Faith. We walk by faith and not by sight. When Jesus comes we will have no need of faith.
    Heb.11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    Faith will last only up to the coming of Christ, and then it will end. There will be no need of faith once we see Christ.

    Hope:
    Rom.8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    --Hope that is seen is not hope. Thus when Christ (our hope) comes, hope will cease. Christ is our hope (Titus 2:13). When he comes there will no longer be any need for hope.
    Thus when Christ comes both hope and faith will end. They are both semi-permanent gifts.

    1Cor.13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    --These three gifts mentioned here: prophecies, tongues, and revelatory knowledge, are all temporary gifts set in contradistinction to the others just mentioned. Paul sets these gifts in contrast. to the other two sets. These gifts are temporary. They will cease, fail, vanish away. The question is, when?

    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    --We know in part, Paul says. That is we have part of the Bible--the Old Testament. They may have had one or two of the earlier written books such as Matthew or James, but that is about all. "We know in part." We have only part of the Word of God."
    Thus, "we prophesy in part." Because we have only part of the Word of God, God has given these other sign gifts, especially prophecy (which he deals with extensively in chapter 14), to give us (the Corinthians and other first century Christians) the knowledge that would be contained in the rest of the New Testament.

    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    "When that which is perfect is come." What is "that" which is perfect? The Greek pronoun "that" has a neuter gender. In a language like French there are only two genders for each noun (masculine and feminine). But in Greek there are three: masculine, feminine and neuter. This happens to be a neuter pronoun. If it referred to Christ the Holy Spirit would have used a masculine pronoun, but He didn't. He used a neuter pronoun. The word "that" refers to the Word of God, which is neutral. The Old English word "perfect" as in English, so in Greek, means "complete." When the Word of God is complete then that which is in part (the temporary gifts of prophesy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge) shall be done away. When the perfect word of God was completed in 98 A.D. with the completion of the Book of Revelation, near the end of the first century these sign gifts had died out. They had ceased. Even at the very writing of this epistle were they starting to die out. There is no valid historical evidence that tongues continued past the first century except occaisionally in some heretical groups. They ceased: verified both in the Bible and in history. The tongues of today are not valid or Scriptural. They are a relatively new movement that started at the turn of the 20th century. If they are Scriptural why did they not exist between the first and 20th century? If they are Scriptural why are they not spoken in actual real languages such as the New Testament tongues were spoken in, instead of some kind of unknown gibberish?
    DHK
     
  13. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    If they are Scriptural why are they not spoken in actual real languages such as the New Testament tongues were spoken in, instead of some kind of unknown gibberish?

    I remember listening to the testimony of our campus minister at Texas A&M University when I was an undergraduate student there. She recounted the time when she was in her Pentecostal Church (before she came into the Catholic Church) and was still skeptical about the gifts when a visitor to the church, who was a professor in Semitic languages, recognized that a lady there was speaking in perfect Hebrew - which no one else in the parish knew because no one there had been schooled in that particular language.
     
  14. DHK

    DHK
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    That's the exception not the norm.
    I also know of a pastor from Greece who attended a Charismatic church in B.C. He became somewhat frightened when he heard a man speak in tongues in perfect Greek. The problem was that he was saying in Greek over and over again: "I love the devil."
    DHK
     
  15. BobRyan

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    If John 20 was signalling the "end of miracles" then we would not have the book of Acts.

    Christ said that "These signs will follow those who believe". He made no reference to "the end" coming as soon as He left.

    And we still have "believers".

    The 1 Cor 12 "gifts" were in full force in the days of Romans 10:17 it was not saying that they ended prior to the writing of Romans 10:17.

    In fact - the book of Revelation was "still coming" AND THAT TOO was the miraculous gift of prophecy mentioned in 1Cor 12.


    Indeed this was the model for "believers" and as Paul shows in Acts 17 they COMBINED the reading of scripture WITH the miracles of the "gifts of the spirit" (1Cor 2 says this is so that faith would rest in the Power of God).

    Still no proof that Acts was trying to show the "end of spiritual gifts" NOR does 1Cor 12 show that they were limited to "Apostles".

    The "problem" is the teaching that "NOW we see in part but THEN we shall see FACE to FACE" - as John stated in 1John 3 "We shall know EVEN as we are known".

    The same argument could be made for Prophets in the days of Christ (John the Baptist comes to mind) - there had been no prophets for 300 years. That was "not" a doctrinal argument for "end of all prophets".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Briguy

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    Hi Guys, I have a hard time believing we are arguing this miracles point. God can perform any miracle he wants at anytime he wants. But, there was a gift of Miracles that was a power that the individual had. The person with this gift could raise the dead when they wanted, it was their power and it served a purpose which is now over. The proof, like Frank said is that no one, not even the pope can raise the dead. Now about healing. Many people have stories of healings. Some could be true but they are God healings not done by a person with the gift of healing. Also, in all the healing stories I have never heard or seen video tape of a person growing a new limb. Why doesn't this ever happen? Thats enough for now.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  17. Frank

    Frank
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    JMF:

    It is obvious you do not under stand the IMPLICATION of Eph. 4:12-14 as you ignored it. I would to if I held your position.

    It is not opinion that Jesus would be andros, male gender. Get a lexicon and look it up.

    Furthermore, the context of I Cor. 13:8-10 anticipates the ceasation of the miraculous age. Verse 8 uses the exact word CEASE. Again, no opinion, just fact.

    Fact, the miraculous gifts could be given by the apostles to others by the laying on of there hands. Acts 8;18. IMPLICATION: the apostles are dead. Therefore, they cannot pass them on by the laying on of their hands. Therefore, these gifts do not exist today.

    Fact, the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit was a promised to be received, not a command to be obeyed. Joel 2;28, John 16:13, Luke 24:44-51 Acts 2:1-4,17; 10:44;8:18.

    Fact, there is no biblical evidence that these abilities are for today. NONE!

    Fact, one who claims to have this miraculous power is under divine obligation to prove it! I Thes. 5:22 says prove all things hold fast that which if good.

    Fact, those who claim such power and cannot prove it are liars. Rev. 2:2.

    Fact, The implication of the verses posted prove miraculous gifts do not exist today. SEE Joel 2:28, Luke 24:44-51, Acts 2:1-4,17;8:18; 10:44, Eph. 4:12-14, I Cor. 10;8-13, Mark 16:17-20, John 20: 30,31.

    Fact, those who claim to have this power must raise the dead, heal the sick, drink deadly poison, be unharmed by deadly serpents. Luke 10:9,17, Mat. 10:8.

    JMF, you can prove your positon to be true by simply perfoming a biblical miracle. Just raise someone from the dead, heal the sick, drink deadly poison. This is what those endowed with this power did. I guess you have a different spirit?

    Fact, the IMPLICATION of the Biblical evidence proves to the rational mind Bilical miracles do not exist today. SEE SCRIPTURES.
     
  18. Frank

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    Bob:
    The totality of the evidence indicates Biblical miracles have ceased. This is the truth as per the following:
    1. The miraculous power was a PROMISE TO BE RECEIVED , not a command to be obeyed. Mat. 3:11, Joel 2:28, John 16:13, Luke 24:44-51, Acts 2:1-4, 17;10:44; 8:17,18.

    2. Those who had this power received it by two methods according to the Bible. One, Jesus baptized them with this power. See number ONE. Two, the apostles placed their hands on the individual to impart the gift. Acts 8:17,18;12-16.

    3. Those who had this power were under divine sanction to prove it! I Thes. 5:21, Luke 10:8.
    4. The purpose of performing miracles was,according to the Bible, to confirm the word. Mark 16:20. The word has been confirmed. Is it still not authentic? If not, why not?

    5. Those who claimed this power who did not prove it were liars. Rev. 2: 2, II Cor. 12:12.

    6. The context of I Cor. 11,12,13: 8-10 anticipates the ceassation of the purpose of these miraculous gifts. Verse 8 uses the very word cease.

    7. The Bible says that these gifts ceased when men were complete in the faith. The implication of Eph. 4:12-14 is as clear as can be. These gifts were to cease when the all scripture was delivered to man. II Tim. 3:16,17. it is scriptures that completes us , NOT MIRACLES!!. This is what the Bible says in II Tim. 3:16,17, Jude 3.

    8. If one claims to have this ability, he must be able to raise the dead, heal the sick, drink deadly poison, and be bitten by deadly vipers and not be harmed. Fact, THERE IS NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CONTINUATION OF MIRACULOUS POWER.

    9. The totality of the harmonious evidence teaches the rational mind that miraculous gifts have ceased. see 1-7.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    In 1 Cor 12 we have an entire chapter that deals explicitly and in most detail with the subject of "Spiritual Gifts".

    Yet that chapter is given NO attention in the discussion of spiritual gifts in the post preceeding this one.

    "Why do you suppose that would be"?

    Notice that 1Cor 12 is emphatic that those with ONE gift DO NOT necessarily HAVE ANOTHER ONE also.


    Christ's statement in the Gospels WAS NOT that one person would have ALL the gifts (in direct contradiction to the clear statements of 1Cor 12) but rather that THE GIFTS would be a trait of "Believers" - the followers of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    1 Cor 13 points to the time when gifts will cease because "We SEE in a glass darkly now" but "THEN" we shall "SEE FACE to FACE" we shall "KNOW" even as we are KNOWN.

    1John 3 and 1Cor 13 agree - that THEN we shall "SEE" and know as we are known "For we shall SEE HIM as He is" 1John 3:2. 1Cor 13:12 we shall SEE "FACE to FACE".

    But "NOW" says the Apostle Paul - (who was caught up to paradise 2Cor 12) we "SEE in a Glass DARKLY".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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