Misconceptions on both sides of the debate...

Actually, you should believe one or the other. The fact that you don't shows a misunderstanding fo the atonement. The atonement is not a possible payment for sin which can be appropriated by the individual. The atonement is an actual atonement, a satisifaction of the debt. If Christ atoned for the sins of all men without exception, then all men go to heaven. Period. If God sends anyone to hell when Christ paid for their sins, then God is unjust by extracting a payment from them in addition to the payment that was already made.

I am the one relying on teh truth of the verse. The only way you can rely on the truth of the verse is by becoming a universalist. When Christ atoned for the sins, it was finished. As you say, he paid the full price.

[uqote]Without redefining terms? [/quote]Yes

"World" has a definition in ocntext and in 1 JOhn 2:2, you have redefined it to mean something it doesn't.

Which shows that you don't understand Calvinism.

Because I accept the Biblical teaching on atonement. It never left the picture.

No, I never did that.

No you aren't. A full sacrifice is a payment for sins. Therefore, if the efficacy of the atonement is unlimited as you suggest, all men go to heaven by virture of the fact that the payment was full and complete at the cross. Yet we know that some men go to hell. Christ did not pay for the sins of those in hell becuase God is not an unjust God. He does not demand a payment when payment has already been made.

No, it is my way asking when you are going to take the time to learn what Calvinism actually teaches. I am serious when I say you have no clue. You are fighting straw men, redefining terms to meet your whims, and completely ignoring what Calvinism really believes. Feel free to disagree with us, but at least disagree with us, not with some caricature you have made up. If you were not using the word Calvinist, calvinists would not even know you are trying to talk about them because your idea of what we believe is so far removed from reality.

I have been looking for you to deal with what we actually believe for a long time. So far, it hasn't happened ...

 

quote:
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Arminians are claiming that the propitiation - as ATONING SACRIFICE -- as is ALSO used in Lev 16 - is FULL and complete at the cross.
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Yes I am.

However You fail to distinguish between the atoning sacrifice made in vs 15 of Lev 16 and the entire process of Atonment that God describes in that chapter.

Pay close attention to the details in the definition that God provides for both Atoning Sacrifice AND the entire "process" of atonement in Lev 16 and you would clear up some of your difficulty on these points.

Wrong. Here again the Atoning Sacrifice full and complete at the cross is the Lev 16:15 "event" but this is not the entire chapter - the process of atonement does not end in vs 15.

Here again - we have a Calvinist story but it does not fit with what the Bible says.

God's word says "HE is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE world!!"

Calvinism says "OH no He is not! If He was that would be UNJUST! We see that not everyone is going to heaven so Christ CAN NOT have paid the price for ALL sin".

The fact that the Calvinist "story" does not allow for it - is no excuse for changing what the Bible says.

You "claim it would be unjust" of God to suffer the PAYMENT for all sin - if He did not also APPLY that payment and cancel the debt EVEN of those who never accept Christ -- or else God is unjust!

But your claim has no support in scripture. Furthermore - you claim makes no sense.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Romans 9.

 

Larry,

Larry's quote:

'The atonement is not a possible payment for sin which can be appropriated by the individual. The atonement is an actual atonement, a satisifaction of the debt.'

Ray is saying, quote: 'You know we are not saying what you wrote in sentence one. We are telling you that Biblical theology speaks of Christ's full payment for the sins of all lost souls. What places the sinner into grace is his belief. [Acts 16:31] Without a cognitive response to the call of the Spirit of God, grace is never imparted to sinners.

Bob and I both agree with your last sentence. It is an actual, real, live, and faultless atonement to all sinners by His satisfaction and debt paid in His own blood.

The only difference is that you foks think that God autocratically selects some sinners, and we are saying that without faith it is impossible to please the Lord. [Hebrews 11:6] ' . . . he who comes to God must BELIEVE that He is, and that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.' Yes, the Spirit calls and draws us to Himself but without 'seeking Him' through believing and trusting, there is no hope of everlasting life with Jesus.

 

Ray, learn to use the quotes. How many times do I have say that??? Your posts are very confusing to read.

You guys both need to take some time off to actually learn about what you are talking about.

 

Ray Berrian said, in response to Pastor Larry:

No you don't both agree on that. You simply played into Bob Ryan's hands in thinking he believes the same way you do. He doesn't.
What he truly, actually, heartfully believes is what his church taught him, that while they say Christ atoned for the sins 'of the world' that atonement is conditional on the final outcome of Christ's investigative judgment as to who truly, truly deserves to be saved in accordance with their conduct . And this investigative judgment is being conducted on those who have 'accepted' Him as Savior. In other words, the atonement is not really final for them.

Is that what you believe, Ray Berrian ?

You call yourself a scholar, then do your scholarly work. Investigate their investigative judgment doctrine and find out for yourself.

 

I have no difficulty to clear up. The fact of the matter remians that when an atonement is made, it is done. There is no more punishment. If Christ's death was the atonement for the every single person, then no one would go to hell (unless God was unjust). YOu want to focus on the process but that is not the point.

This is a clear proof of my statement that you need to learn what Calvinists actually say. Calvinists believe 1 JOhn 2:2. We believe that Christ was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of hte whole world.

Sure it makes sense. God does not need a double payment for sin. It would be unjust for God to punish Christ for your sin, and then to turn around and punish you for your sin. But that is exactly what hell is. Hell is an eternal punishment for sin. If Christ paid that eternal punishment, then there is no reason for anyone to be sent to hell. The very existence of hell is the proof of my point.

 

I studied the Investigative Judgment in seminary while studying for the Bachelor of Divinity degree.

If God were to judge each of us on the basis of our perfect theology, then no one would get to see the beatific vision.

I would think that Bob would believe in Jesus as personal Savior. Just as all Christians are not Arminians, so too not all SDV believes in all the doctrines of their church denomination.

 

Then he lied to the minister who baptized him, because before they are baptized they are asked if they understand, accept and believe all the doctrines of the SDA and it is a doctrine in the SDA that Ellen G. White is the one that has the Spirit of the Prophecy.

The above, of course, is not verbatim, but that's the thought. And he has a post where he clearly says he was not ignorant when he was baptized.

 

Ray Berrian said, in response to Pastor Larry:

Note to self: Never let Pinoy speak for SDAs or for Arminians.

Ok here is what I believe on God's teaching on Atonement as HE describes it in Lev 16 and in 1John 2:2.

GOD provides "The Atoning Sacrifice for ALL the WORLD" and that "ATONING Sacrifice was COMPLETE for ALL the world at the cross".

Get it? (I have only posted this about a dozen times so far ..maybe this one will be read).

However in Lev 16:15 the atoning sacrifice is NOT the END of the entire process AS GOD describes it.

I recommend we "listen to HIM" rather than trying to cut the chapter short. How about you?

(Or is that just an Arminian way of treating chapters?)

Calvinists claim that Christ is doing MORE Than paying the PRICE for sin on the cross - MORE than Atoning SACRIFICE - rather they claim that EACH person is forgiven then and there - no need to repent or respond to the gospel or even BE BORN - you are already a saint, already sinless, already without blame.

That is a horrible abuse of the Lev 16 teaching that GOD GAVE on the subject of atonement.

Further - John claims Christ is the ATONING SACRIFICE in 1John 2:2 as does Paul in Romans 3.

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

An understatement if ever there was one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In Romans 2 - Paul says of the FUTURE judgment - that it is based on deeds and that some go to heaven and some go to hell. HE gives BOTH the successful and the failing cases in Romans 2.

Read it some time.

In Rev 20 John says the same thing.

In Matt 7 - Christ says the same thing.

In 2Cor 5:8-11 Paul says the same thing "again".

I for one - believe it.

However that judgment is NOT what determines IF you are a Christian or WHEN you get saved.

IT is justification PAST - the one we see in Romans 5:1-2 that gets you IN.

The FUTURE judgement merely exposes the truth about those who DID get saved vs those who DID NOT.

So why is Paul speaking of it in terms of DEEDS as he does in Romans 2 and 2Cor 5?

If you object to his usage you will have to take it up with him!

This is actually pretty easy to understand - but Pinoy likes to pretend it is complicated and seems to enjoy misrepresenting it.

I guess he finds it entertaining.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I claim that the sacrifice is REAL and is EQUAL to the amount owed.

I do not CLAIM that at the cross ALL mankind became saints, and sinless, owing nothing.

Neither does any ARminian I know of (but that seems to come as a surprise to Pinoy).

This is true.

However Calvinist use the term "Atonement" in the sense of FULL and complete payment APPLIED to the sinner and the sinner completely standing without debt or NEED of repentance. They are at that moment - sinless, faultless before God.

This is why I am always careful to use the words of John in 1John 2:2 where HE says that in fact it is the "ATONING SACRIFICE" that is COMPLETE at the cross. Which is the sense that ALL Arminians give to that as well.

However the problem that Calvinists are exposing here (and it is a real problem for Arminians) is that when Arminians use the term ATONEMENT instead of ATONING SACRIFICE for that 1John 2:2 event - they fall right into the hands of the Calvinists - because in fact the entire Atonement process of Lev 16 IS designed to produce the VERY result that Calvinists claim it does.

The position I take is the one that AFFIRMS the Arminian positionn on 1John 2:2 that it is only the ATONING SACRIFICE that is complete at the cross.

At the same time - it recognizes that PART of the Calvinist argument that is correct - which is that once ATONEMENT is full and complete - there remains nothing more for God or the sinner or the saint to do. It is over!

Ray - Our Calvinist bretheren have been trying to stick you into that gap - so I wanted to clarify.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

If Christ atoned for their sins, then why are they in hell?

 

As the note that I posted above for Ray points out -- I am sticking with John's statement of "Atoning SACRIFICE" completed at the cross.

The complete Lev 16 process of Atonement must include the Heb 8-10 work of Christ as our High Priest in heaven. It did not end before He started.

In Christ,

Bob

 

So Bob,

If Christ atoned for their sins, then why are they in hell?

 

According to the Arminian theory, folks are damned, not because Jesus did not die for them, but because they did not "accept" it.

 

Here is what Bob Ryan is really saying.

He believes Jesus Christ' blood was shed on the cross, but that means nothing , it holds no value at all, Christ's blood has no power at all.

He believes Jesus Christ is a Savior, yes, but, He has in fact, actually, truly, saved no one yet. Bob Ryan believes that right now, Jesus Christ is up there determining who really benefits from His 'sacrifice', that His Book of Life will be full of crossed out names, and on the last day, that is when the 'atonement' would be truly effective, when Christ's 'investigative judgment' is done, the final Book of Life is complete, with the names of those who have passed muster and proven to be faithful and obedient to the Sabbath and the Laws.

What's the matter with you, Ray Berrian ? Don't you get it ?

Bob Ryan's mocking you in principle. He claims to be Arminian, but, he is not. At least Arminians believe that when Jesus Christ died on the cross, He atoned fully for the sins of the world, and there is no 'in-between' period like the one he qualifies with the word 'However' in his post.

Calvinists believe that Christ fully atoned for the sins of His elect, not for the sins of the whole world, as opposed to what Arminians believe, but, both Arminian and Calvinists believe that that's it. There is no in-between period.

Which is why I have time and again questioned Bob Ryan's presence in these debate threads. He is neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

 

But then you Primitives say you're not either!
(I know; you agree with them on that particular point; but still couldn't resist)

 

As I already said

And then this is the part where I say -- "so obviously those who accept the Gospel are not in hell".

However that does not limit God or change the fact of the "Atoning SACRIFICE" that is equal to the DEBT owed by "OUR sins AND NOT OUR sins only but also the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

In Christ,

Bob