MMF - Biblical Principles for Church Music

Eric...you were very balanced and cautious in your post, which I believe is the best approach. We have tried to keep very balanced and Biblical in this thread. Thus far, we're OK. Your response to the post about a music God likes and a type that Satan likes could be enhanced by the reference to how Elijah needed music played to calm his spirit so that he could hear what God wanted him to communicate to others. How about Saul's evil spirit being driven away with music? On the other hand, how about the orgy at the bottom of Mt. Sinai led by Aaron? Apparently there was some kind of musical involvement there...and it didn't seem to produce a wholesome result since this event devolved into a sexual orgy. The problem comes when we try to dogmatically pinpoint a particular style/sound as being demonic or angelic. Just how do you do that since God didn't spell that SOUND out to us in His Word? At this point we turn to principles of order/decency/moral excellence/wholesomeness. etc. We then make our personal application off of these Biblical principles. BUT AGAIN, LET US BE CAUTIOUS TO NOT SPEAK WHERE GOD HAS NOT SPOKEN! Careful, brethren...let the discussion continue....

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]

 

QUOTE by Eric:
"But this says nothing about "contemporary" versus "traditional" styles, both of which would not even exist for thousands of years to come. Other Scriptures show that lively danceable (rhythmic) music was accepted by God as worship (it was the Hebrew (mid-eastern style), so we can't deduce from this "All rhythmic music is what Satan likes, so then God must like only plain music"."

"Onward Christian Soldiers" is rhythmic, but not CCM.
The music in Exodus that cause the Israelite to dance naked around the golden calf was very rhythmic.
Almost all CCM is very rhythmic, and in fact, puts too much emphasis on rhythm and beat, rather than on the melody and the words. Try visualizing the music being sung and played in heaven by the angelic beings described in Revelation chapters 4 and 5. You won't find any hint of CCM or rock there.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Onward Christian Soldiers" is rhythmic, but not CCM.
The music in Exodus that cause the Israelite to dance naked around the golden calf was very rhythmic.
Almost all CCM is very rhythmic, and in fact, puts too much emphasis on rhythm and beat, rather than on the melody and the words. Try visualizing the music being sung and played in heaven by the angelic beings described in Revelation chapters 4 and 5. You won't find any hint of CCM or rock there.
DHK
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Onward Christian Soldier is marching rhythm, and while people make the very same reference to the golden calf as "warlike" music, they then turn around and uphold marching rhythms as the accepatable choice. The Bible does not say specifically how rhythmic music was, but it seems that the worship David offered with dancing with "all his might" would certainly be more rhythmic than the early 20th century and before "marching" style hymns, and the historical information I could gather also hints that ancient mideastern (including Hebrew) music was "strongly" rhythmic, as is evident from the midestern style that survives today. As I d\said, we odten see "harps and strings" in the Bible, and then think of mellow symphonic music, and read that into the text. But much of that music is European, not mideastern. Who's to say what the angelic music in Rev. 4 & 5 and elasewhere is like (As CCM critic Tim Fisher admits, we have never heard a note of this heavenly music.) But let's not assume it sounds like classical or old hymns, which were also produced by fallen man (i.e. "the world"). We may be surprised by what we see (but of course, whatever it is like, it will glorify God's majesty).

 

Quote:
"Who's to say what the angelic music in Rev. 4 & 5 and elasewhere is like (As CCM critic Tim Fisher admits, we have never heard a note of this heavenly music.) But let's not assume it sounds like classical or old hymns, which were also produced by fallen man (i.e. "the world"). We may be surprised by what we see (but of course, whatever it is like, it will glorify God's majesty)."

Any good student of the Word of God can, by applying Biblical principals, come to a proper understanding of right and wrong in music. "Let's not assume it (heavenly music) sounds like classical or old hymns, which were also produced by fallen man (i.e. 'the world')." Sounds like poor theology. Most of those "classical and old hymns" that we are so accustomed to, were composed and written by God-fearing Christians, most of whom had a disdain for "this world." Many of them also were highly educated.

For example, Dr. Ray Palmer began his life as a clerk in a dry-goods store; he ended it as a beloved pastor of the Congregational Church of America, a learned Doctor of Divinity, and a famous hymn writer! The first of all his hymns is the most widely known and the best loved. From his dry-goods store he had passed to an academy and from there to Yale college, where he obtained his degree in 1830, when he was just 22 years old. After leaving college he began to teach, and it was then that he wrote his first hymn:

My faith looks up to Thee, Thou Lamb of Calvary,
Saviour Divne; Now hear me while I pray;
Take all my sins away; Oh let me from this day
Be wholly Thine.

Palmer says about his own composition, "I gave forrm to what I felt, by writing, with little effort, these stanzas. I recollect I wrote them with very tender emotion, and ended the last line with tears." That last line was:
Oh bear me save above---
A ransomed soul.

Eventually this hymn made ist wayin into all English-speaking countries, and has also been translated into numerous languages. Dr. Palmer wrote many other hymns as well.

One would do themselves well to search out the lives and testimonies of Charlotte Eliott (Just As I Am), Charles Wesley, Fanny Crosby, Dr. Robert Lowry (Shall We Gather at the River), and find out a little about them and the circumstances in which they wrote. How did Dr. Lowry come to write "Shall We Gather at the River," when at that time in July of 1864 there was a raging epidemic in the city of Brooklyn, which was his home? What inspired Fanny Crosby to write all the wonderful hymns that she has composed, even though she was blind almost all her life?

No, those hymns are not of the world! As one of them put it:
"This world is not my home, I'm just passing through.
My treasure is laid up somewhere beyond the blue."

'If it's rock, it's not Christian; If it's Christian, it's not rock.'
DHK

 

&lt; Most of those "classical and old hymns" that we are so accustomed to, were composed and written by God-fearing Christians, most of whom had a disdain for "this world." Many of them also were highly educated. &gt;

Quite contradictory, unless their 'education' was somewhere *not in this world*.

&lt; ...Yale college &gt;

What an *unworldly* one that is! Is that where he learned the silly "thees," "thous," and "thines;" pronouns not in common usage for well over 2 centuries? Perhaps that is what you mean by 'having a disdain for this world.'

&lt; Eventually this hymn made ist wayin into all English-speaking countries, and has also been translated into numerous languages. Dr. Palmer wrote many other hymns as well. &gt;

Did he research all these languages to find archaic pronouns? and did he force a type of melody which would be very strange and foreign to many culture and language groups in which it was translated?

&lt; No, those hymns are not of the world! As one of them put it:
"This world is not my home, I'm just passing through.
My treasure is laid up somewhere beyond the blue." &gt;

They are composed of words anyone who can speak is capable of speaking, and notes and timing anyone who can sing is capable of singing. Cite the scripture for this "beyond the blue" clause.

&lt; 'If it's rock, it's not Christian; If it's Christian, it's not rock.' &gt;

That's ****** [don't you love those *'s?]. Country, jazz, 'soul,' 'big band,' folk... is that true of any of these also (IYO)?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Let's not assume it (heavenly music) sounds like classical or old hymns, which were also produced by fallen man (i.e. 'the world')." Sounds like poor theology. Most of those "classical and old hymns" that we are so accustomed to, were composed and written by God-fearing Christians, most of whom had a disdain for "this world." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is preciselythe mistake we are making! Assuming because they were "God-fearing Christians", who had a "disdain" for the "world", that they were pure, meaning completely unstained by the world. God wants us to stive to be Holy as He is, but we must remember, that we are still fallen and will never attain this before the resurrection. (1 John 1:8-10). Just think, the CCM stars who are being trashed here are also "God-fearing Christians", who also have a certain "disdain" for the world (that's the whole purpose of having Christianrock, and Christian versions of everything else in the world, in the first place). But we see they still make mistakes. The whole issue basically is one of culture and generation, (which people think are better than others), not spirituality.
As I quote Michael Horton on my page:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"We too have been very confident in our abilities at resisting worldliness and secularism. After all, 'we don't dance, drink or chew, or go out with girls who do', and so while the devil has us congratulating ourselves on avoiding a decoy, he has pulled us into the very reef itself, and we are taking on water". (Beyond Culture Wars, p.236)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And one of the features of this "reef" is our own lack of sense of our own sinfulness, which allows ut to show so little grace to the world and brethren we do not agree with, while upholding our traditions as almost infallible.

 

To the chief Musician, A Song or Psalm. Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands: (Psa 66:1 KJV)

To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of Asaph. Sing aloud unto God our strength: make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob. (Psa 81:1 KJV)

O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation. (Psa 95:1 KJV)

Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms. (Psa 95:2 KJV)

Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. (Psa 98:4 KJV)

With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King. (Psa 98:6 KJV)

A Psalm of praise. Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands. (Psa 100:1 KJV)

Hhmmmm! Maybe electric guitar "noise" is not as offensive to God as it is to some of us

I generally agree with the posts on this thread. Anyone who thinks God is not using present day Christian (true) musicians to draw His elect to Him for His glory and honor err in their judgment.

 

Wellsjs, I love those verses you quote. Try meditating on them, and see if you can picture an electric guitar in any of those verses. I don't think that David or any of his chief musicians owned any. My son has learned to play the guitar. I might buy him a semi-acoustic guitar. A pastor in the area owns an electric guitar, and he's approaching 80 years old! In both cases each of them disdain the ungodly CCM music--that cheap imitation or the world's rock. When the Lord offers you T-bone steak, why do you dig around in the earth looking for worms to eat?

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
The resultant outcome of being filled with the Holy Spirit is to speak or sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs--singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.
1. CCM is not psalms.
2. CCM is not hymns.
3. CCM is not spiritual songs--rather fleshly, carnal, worldly.
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom.8:8)
"Whosoever is a friend of the world is an enemy of God" (James 4:4)
"Be not conformed to this world." (Rom. 12:1)
"Love not the world neither the things of the world" (1John 2:15)

" Music reflects the mood of the times. Listen to the music of any society and it will tell you all you need to know. Listen to the music of our time. Have you ever heard anything so hopeless? Listen to Rock and Roll, to Heavy Metal. The beat hypnotizes the mind while the WORDS of the "music" fill the heart. If you want to know what's wrong with our young people, just listen to their music. Today's music glorifies drugs, rebellion, and attacks anything Godly. Listen to the BOOM BOOM, BANG BANG, CRASH, BOP BOP of today's pop music. Hillbilly and country music is not any better. It sings of bar rooms, bed rooms, cheating, sleeping around. Many churches are adopting the BOOM BOOM, BOP BOP beat of some of these rock groups. They have the same sound stage, same lights, same beat. Let's not compromise with the world with our music. EVERY CHURCH SHOULD GUARD ITS MUSICAL PROGRAM.
God's people are a singing people. The Book of Psalms is a Hymn Book. The Church have given to the world the most beautiful music. Read the titles of your hymnal songs. These are songs of comfort, of peace, of assurance, of hope, of faith, of love. The words are beautiful, and the melodies are glorious."
(quoted from the "Fair Dinkum" by Andrew Craig)

 

I think folks are totally misunderstanding the concept of not being conformed to the world. To obstain from being like the world in the way its being brought across this would mean we have to have nothing in our homes and we would have to remain locked in the privacy of our homes praying every day and every night non stop. The fact that we christians move along with technology with having computers and such means we are doing the same as the world according to how people are using that scripture to back up that ccm is wrong. The bible says in Psalms that we are to praise and it gives the instruments we are to use as well. This verse talks about using drums as well as dancing, so you tell me, how is it that God cannot be glorified with this type of music when he himself tells us to use those instruments to make that type of music and even dance to it to praise him.

Btw, now whats wrong with stage lighting and stage sound? How is this ungodly? -dar

 

I wish Aaron was back!! He could open all these dismal "Scriptural" arguments up and gut them like a master swordsman. MagicDar, Wells, and Eric B wouldn't have known what hit them!

I'm trying to get him to come back sooner than September! (We live in the same neighborhood and go to the same church.)

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Theopolitan ]

 

rlvaughn and I knew this thread would eventually degenerate away from the civil discussion of BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES into the emotional expressions/ourbursts manifested by many of these most recent posts (DHK excluded). Nearly everyone is missing the point that GOD sets the standards of holiness and purity in the scriptures, not feeble man...and here we are trying to set the standards in a man-made fashion. Shame on us! Why can't we go back to the original purpose of this thread and CIVILLY discuss the Bible as Rl and I originally intended. We really don't need Aaron to return any sooner than September if we can get this thread back on track. Hey, folks, let's try...

 

Well, actually I don't usually post with my emotions, see I've had so many conversations in the past since I was a teenager with adults so now I've basically heard just about every and any argument there is from ccm critics. I used to get all upset and ticked off but anymore I've realized that everyone will have personal insight on how they see it and believe but it won't change my belief. I feel strongly about music and I am comfortable and at peace with what God has done in my life concerning music. If it came across as emotional or offensive, I am very sorry, it wasn't meant to be in this manner. -dar

 

"it won't change my belief. I feel strongly about music and I am comfortable and at peace with what God has done in my life concerning music. "

Magicdar,
I don't want to be personal, but there are two characteristics in your response that are typical in many people, Christian and non-Christian alilke, that express themselves when confronted with something that they do not agree with.
1. One is the unwillingness to change--stubborness even when confronted with the truth. Your statement is "it won't change my belief." That's pretty dogmatic. In spite of what the Bible says, in spite of what glorifies God, in spite of the command "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise," to think on these things; in spite of the command to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; you would still say, "it won't change my belief!" Amazing! That's stubborness. Here is just one verse concerning this attitude: 1Sam. 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
2. The second characteristic is emotion. "I feel....am comfortable....at peace" The world runs their lives by their emotions, by the way they "feel." If I ran my life by the way I felt, I wouldn't get out of bed in the morning, and I wouldn't bother showing up at work because I didn't "feel" like it. We don't act that way in the real world, but when it comes to Christianity that's precisely the way many people make their decisions--based on their feelings. I witnessed today to a man who converted to Roman Catholicism. He joined the RC church because he liked the ceremony and emotional peaceful setting that it gave. He could sit there and "feel" at peace. He made his decisions entirely based on emotions. He also was stubborn. He was not going to change his mind when confronted with the truth. I asked him about the truth of God's Word compared to the teaching of the Catholic Church. He replied that he knew the teaching of the Bible was different than that of the Catholic Church. It wasn't the truth that mattered to him. It was "I feel...comfortable....at peace," and he wasn't about to change. At least not yet. I am having a Bible study with him and his wife next week, so you can pray that they do change, and God saves them by His grace.

"I think folks are totally misunderstanding the concept of not being conformed to the world. To obstain from being like the world in the way its being brought across this would mean we have to have nothing in our homes and we would have to remain locked in the privacy of our homes praying every day and every night non stop."
Now who is misunderstanding the concept of "not being conformed to the world?" Jesus Himself said that "you are in the world, but are not of the world." God made man with intelligence, with a mind to use the wonders of technology around us, providing we don't abuse it. As with everything, technology can be good or bad, depending how you are using it. It was Guttenburg's press that first printed the Bible. What a marvellous invention that was. Be not conformed to this world (or this world system). Read the rest of the verse. "But be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God." Are you able to prove (demonstrate) God's good, perfect, and pleasing will in your life? Are you able to do this because your life has been so changed (transformed) by the Holy Spirit, that you no longer conform to this world, but rather you conform to Christ (Rom.8:29)?
"Be not conformed to this world." is a command to be holy.
To "be conformed to the image of his Son" is to be holy.
This whole issue centers around obedience and holiness.

Keep true to His Word
DHK

 

&lt; "I feel....am comfortable....at peace" &gt;

That is at the top of the list among those think only the familiar hymns out of the book should be sung in worship. "When we sing 'It is Well With My Soul' I just *feel so comforted*," I once heard a man say. Likely enough, he is one of those "stubborn" ones you refer to, who will not change his mind about anything.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you want to know what's wrong with our young people, just listen to their music. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just change the words to "If you want to know what's wrong with our young people, just look at their upbringing.", and it becomes obvious how behavioristic this apprach is, even though we criticize the secularists and Christian psychologists for this. You cannot blame music styles for peoples' sins. Any sinfulness in the music is a symptom of a deeper problem , namely, sin (NOT the otherway around).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Listen to the BOOM BOOM, BANG BANG, CRASH, BOP BOP of today's pop music. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And while the beat may be used for sin, you still can't blame the beat as if it was what causedthe sin.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. CCM is not psalms.
2. CCM is not hymns.
3. CCM is not spiritual songs--rather fleshly, carnal, worldly. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This i not true, unless it's purely the sound that determines these categories. As I say on my page: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Often, when denouncing "rock", the critics will claim what we are supposed to listen to and sing is "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" (Col.3:16). But many of the contemporary Christian songs they criticize are either modern "hymns" (odes) of praise to God, and some are taken right out of the Psalms or other scriptures. Most are at least "spiritual" in that they advocate Christian values, and teach or encourage the believers (as the Colossians passage is instructing us), even if they may not be loaded with deep theology, or have a largely human orientation. Can this even be said about classical pieces that don't even have words, or the national anthems, which are basically "hymns" of praise to our country (a fallible human institution, and one whose past is greatly over-romanticized and viewed as almost without sin!). The problem is in how you define "spiritual" (pneumatikos), meaning "non-carnal" (or "ethereal" as opposed to "gross" --Strong). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From Theopolitan
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I wish Aaron was back!! He could open all these dismal "Scriptural" arguments up and gut them like a master swordsman. MagicDar, Wells, and Eric B wouldn't have known what hit them! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the whole problem. Scripture is constantly overridden ["gutted"] in favor of people's own arguments and claims. Why must we wait for one person to come back when we have the Bible which is supposed to be our final authority?

DHK again:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. One is the unwillingness to change--stubborness even when confronted with the truth. Your statement is "it won't change my belief." That's pretty dogmatic. In spite of what the Bible says, in spite of what glorifies God, in spite of the command "whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise," to think on these things; in spite of the command to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; you would still say, "it won't change my belief!" Amazing! That's stubborness. Here is just one verse concerning this attitude: 1Sam. 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The question is, what is his "belief" he won't change? He's not saying "The scriptures say this, but I'm not changing my beliefs". The point is You say he's violating scripture, and he doesn't belive he is, so since therefore since it's you he's disputing, he can say you won't change his beliefs. You are assuming that what you are saying the scriptures say (that all contemporary styles violate those virtues) is so undeniably true that to deny it is to deny scripture. But as all of us are prone to misinterpreting scripture (including reading our own ideas into it), none of us have the right to take that kind of attitude

2. [answered by Rockfort]
Also, to dismiss someones claim of peace with God like that as just "emotion", you are are seriously violating scriptural teaching about conscience. An issue like this where God did not say that certain styles of music violate his character and the virtues He commands us to have, all we can have is our "feelings" of peace or conviction. God granted this o us in areas like this, else, He could have directly addressed the issue, as He did with countless other vices. We must trust that our brethren are obeying what God is telling tham, and we have no right to question that, unless we see that it violates the clear commands of scripture. If Dar or anoyone else of us is lying, and God is convicting us and we refuse to change, then we shall answer to Him for that. He did not ask any of us to try and determine people's hearts, because as Jeremiah says, we cannot even trust our own.

 

" You cannot blame music styles for peoples' sins. Any sinfulness in the music is a symptom of a deeper problem , namely, sin (NOT the otherway around). "

I disagree. Although man himself is ultimatley responsible for his own sin no matter what the conditions are, we can put people, especially children and young people, in environments where it is very easy for them to sin.
"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?" (Job 1:8-10)
God provided a hedge about Job, he protected him and blessed him.
In the same way I provide a hedge about my family, my children. I try to keep them away from the drug scene, immorality, and the unfruitful works of darkness. How? By providing the right environment. What musical environment caused the Israelites to dance naked around a golden calf?
What musical environment caused the evil spirit to leave Saul, and his heart to be calmed?
The style of music? Yes, it has an amazing effect on people, and gives them cause to sin.
Have you ever heard of "Woodstock?" The gathering together of thousands of teenagers to listen to a number of rock bands, the end result of which most of them became naked, not to mention the other things that went on at that time.

Quote:
"But many of the contemporary Christian songs they criticize are either modern "hymns" (odes) of praise to God, and some are taken right out of the Psalms or other scriptures. Most are at least "spiritual" in that they advocate Christian values, and teach or encourage the believers (as the Colossians passage is instructing us), even if they may not be loaded with deep theology, or have a largely human orientation."

Sounds like a good New Age re-definition of what Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs might be.
Just because they "advocate Christian values" makes them spiritual? Just about every religion in the world upholds the "ten commandments" which could be considered "Christian values." Might as well sing praises to "Allah" for that matter. They have "good 'Christian' values" too.

Quote:
"The question is, what is his "belief" he won't change? He's not saying "The scriptures say this, but I'm not changing my beliefs". The point is You say he's violating scripture, and he doesn't belive he is, so since therefore since it's you he's disputing, he can say you won't change his beliefs. You are assuming that what you are saying the scriptures say (that all contemporary styles violate those virtues) is so undeniably true that to deny it is to deny scripture. But as all of us are prone to misinterpreting scripture (including reading our own ideas into it), none of us have the right to take that kind of attitude"

His belief is Roman Catholicism and it is undeniably wrong! The Scriptures dogmatically says it is, and there is no question about it. You cannot conscientiously believe all that the Roman Catholic church teaches and be a Christian at the same time. I used to be a Catholic for twenty years. There are some things that we can be very dogmatic on. And yes I have the right to take that kind of attitude. If I know I am right I will state it, and not back down. This is a Baptist Forum, and the last time I checked we still have freedom of speech, and Baptists still have soul liberty. If you believe I am misinterpeting any Scriptures then come out and say so. Don't hide behind a bush and say, All of us are prone to misinterpreting Scripture etc, etc.

Standing By His Word,
DHK

 

DHK, What you are talking about is diobedience to others who disagree with my stand on ccm, not disobedience to God. The reason I say this is because, I have prayed about the music issue and have searched it out with God himself and when I say "I feel" what I really am saying is "this is the conviction of my heart that God has placed there". Why does anyone assume that because someone likes ccm that means they haven't prayed or searched for truth? I believe from praying and reading scripture that I have found the truth. Sorry you feel this is stubborness, but I also take the same firm stand against abortion, and I'm also not willing to change where that is concerned so is my stubborness wrong there too? Basic truth is we have two different types of tastes in music, neither wrong, but one being condemned by man but not God. -dar

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I disagree. Although man himself is ultimatley responsible for his own sin no matter what the conditions are, we can put people, especially children and young people, in environments where it is very easy for them to sin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's true that people can be led into sin by certain environments, and I even admit this on my page. But it's usually more than just the music that causes the sin. It's the unsubstantiated claims that just a beat by itself causes all the sin

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In the same way I provide a hedge about my family, my children. I try to keep them away from the drug scene, immorality, and the unfruitful works of darkness. How? By providing the right environment. What musical environment caused the Israelites to dance naked around a golden calf?
What musical environment caused the evil spirit to leave Saul, and his heart to be calmed?
The style of music? Yes, it has an amazing effect on people, and gives them cause to sin.
Have you ever heard of "Woodstock?" The gathering together of thousands of teenagers to listen to a number of rock bands, the end result of which most of them became naked, not to mention the other things that went on at that time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're making the MUSIC all bu itself the cause of all the sin, supposedly proving that the beats always take total control of people (probably aided by demons), proving that they are universally bad. But in all of those cases you mentioned, there was alot obviously already spiritually wrong for the people to get into those "environments" in the first place. Then yes, the music may have helped in the wantonness, as the people were already given to the flesh and/or evils spirits. But that doesn't mean that similar music can't ever be used in a different context (like the dancing God accepted from David).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sounds like a good New Age re-definition of what Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs might be.
Just because they "advocate Christian values" makes them spiritual? Just about every religion in the world upholds the "ten commandments" which could be considered "Christian values." Might as well sing praises to "Allah" for that matter. They have "good 'Christian' values" too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But then this can be said of calling only the traditional stuff "hymns, psalms, spiritual songs" as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>His belief is Roman Catholicism and it is undeniably wrong! The Scriptures dogmatically says it is, and there is no question about it. You cannot conscientiously believe all that the Roman Catholic church teaches and be a Christian at the same time. I used to be a Catholic for twenty years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roman Catholicism had nothing to do with this. We're talking about MUSIC. MagicDar just answereed this above, but it just amazed me how could you change the subject like that.

 

DHK,

Picture yourself, if you will, in the dark ages in a monastery where Druid-like chants were the only form of musical expression. If you banged out your favorite hymn on a piano and sang along, they would more than likely burn you at the stake. Hmmmm . . . sounds like what you'd like to do to the CCM folks !

 

I just wanted to post this as a general word of warning. I don't think we realize just how carnal we are. I think every Christian will readily admit to how much this world has desensitized him to the pure horror of sin. We drive down the road and see billboards that no longer seem as horrid to us as they should. We hear God's name taken in vain so often that we no longer recoil as we ought. So, I don't think we realize how much ungodly music has fed our flesh. There is no question that the rock industry as a whole is designed around one thing, to make money by immediately satisfying peoples' lusts.

I don't think many people deny that music has a very powerful influence on people. There are whole businesses designed to use different types of music to cause very specific emotions in people.

Now, if it is true that we are more carnal than we think (which is clearly taught in Scripture) and if music is being used all around us to appeal to man's carnal nature (which is blatantly obvious), then I urge fellow Christians to do a deep examination of the music they use in worship and see if that worldly influence has not crept into the worship of a holy God. I do not believe every CCM song is inherently wrong, but I don't believe we see how much the movement as a whole reflects the world and not Christ.