MMF - Teaching Wrong Doctrine in Song

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Aug 27, 2001.

  1. Dr. Bob

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    Yesterday in Church our songleader selected Beethoven's 9th Symphony's Ode to Joy as opening hymn. I LOVE the music. But the words startled me! :eek:

    Henry van Dyke wrote wonderful praise in verses one and two, but in the third verse he said:
    This was a reflection of the erroneous theology of his day (fatherhood of God and brotherhood of man - as long as we love each other, we'll all make it to heaven).

    Where do Baptist churches come off re-enforcing such blatantly wrong doctrine? :confused:

    I have a list of hymns from our lousy hymnal (Living Hymns by Al Smith is really one of the worst) that I am sending today to the songleader to "X" through them in his master book so they will not be selected again. :rolleyes:

    [ September 09, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  2. Joy

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    Please - give me that list! :eek:
     
  3. KeeperOfMyHome

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    Hmmmm . . . I'll take that list as well.

    I do wonder though . . . how many pastors would willing put themselves in such a position as to oppose certain songs in the hymnal! I certainly hope many would . . . but then again . . . popular opinion certainly rules many a pastor . . . after all, we don't want to "offend" any now, do we?
     
  4. Barnabas H.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin: I have a list of hymns from our lousy hymnal (Living Hymns by Al Smith is really one of the worst) that I am sending today to the songleader to "X" through them in his master book so they will not be selected again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dr. Bob, did you know that Al Smith passed on to eternity? We were at Word of Life when we heard the news. I believe he died on 08/07/2001. His widow, Nancy, lives in Greenville, SC. Just thought that you you might want to know. [​IMG]
     
  5. Brother Adam

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    Hrm... that's is an interesting topic, and a much more important one than debating Christian Rock. As far as I'm concerned the lyrics are more important than the beat.

    I have listened to many CCM songs in light of their doctrine, and most are actually very good doctrinally, but some do stick out there and make you say "WHA???"

    Alot of them though are really great for this day in society. Some such as "Hey, Hey" by The Elms talk about sexual purity, which is a lesson that sorely needs to be taught to Christian teens. Many teens feel that sexual purity is just not "going all the way" when it is sooo much more.

    What kind of impact do you think lyrics have on people? Do you think that they somehow get stuck into our head or affect us?

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  6. Daniel

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    As a veteran Minister of Music I am aware of these hymnbook atrocities and oppose them as vehemently as CCM. We have no more reason to sing the words of v. 3 of "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee" than we do some of the light ditties of today's CCMers. We must be consistent in our stands in the field of music. By the way, I accompanied Dr. Al Smith in concert many years ago and found him to be a deligthful gentleman. I was unaware of his passing until reading one of the counter-posts in this thread.
     
  7. Barnabas H.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel: By the way, I accompanied Dr. Al Smith in concert many years ago and found him to be a deligthful gentleman. I was unaware of his passing until reading one of the counter-posts in this thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Daniel, for the sake of clarification, I don't know much about Dr. Smith except that he was a guest at the Word of Life Bible Conference in Schroon Lake, NY. a few years ago where my wife and I happened to be also. One of the evenings we were invited to a table for dinner and Bro. Smith was already seating there with his wife, Nancy. We set next to each other and started a conversation. That was the first time I heard about him and learned what he was doing for a living.

    His health was not the best by this time. He could hardly walk, but had a charming smile and he hit it off with us from the start because the subject was CCM and he was not friendly toward it. We exchanged business cards (of which I can't find now), and that was the extent of our contact. This summer when we were at WOL again it was announced that he passed away.
     
  8. KeeperOfMyHome

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    Flyfree . . . IMHO, you cannot put more importance on either the words of a song, or its beat (the actual music). Both have either a good or bad influence on us.

    For instance, we have a new choir director, and he has chosen some music that makes me want to . . . well, let's just say it gives me a headache! A big headache! In the interest of keeping what little peace there seems to be in the choir at this time, and yet keep my standards as far as what songs I sing, I quietly refrain from singing with the choir when these certain songs are being sung. I have not made a big deal of it (long story). I got away with it for a few weeks. Last night, he caught me. [​IMG] When he asked if I was singing, I said no. He asked didn't I like the song . . . I said, no, I'm sorry, but I don't. He stomped off, then returned with the phrase "well, it's scriptural."

    I wanted to say "big whoppin' deal!", but I refrained. [​IMG] It doesn't matter to me one bit how "scriptural" the words are if the music is atrocious. It is not edifying, nor is it encouraging, in the least bit. To me personally, the music masks any spirituality (sp?) the words may possibly possess.

    So, my answer to you would be that, in my experience, you cannot separate the two. You can have decent music, but words that are not scriptural; or you can have scriptural words, and yet have music that ruins the whole mood the song could possess.
     
  9. Brother Adam

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KeeperOfMyHome:
    Flyfree . . . IMHO,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    IMHO?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    For instance, we have a new choir director, and he has chosen some music that makes me want to . . . well, let's just say it gives me a headache! A big headache! In the interest of keeping what little peace there seems to be in the choir at this time, and yet keep my standards as far as what songs I sing, I quietly refrain from singing with the choir when these certain songs are being sung. I have not made a big deal of it (long story). I got away with it for a few weeks. Last night, he caught me. [​IMG] When he asked if I was singing, I said no. He asked didn't I like the song . . . I said, no, I'm sorry, but I don't. He stomped off, then returned with the phrase "well, it's scriptural."

    So, my answer to you would be that, in my experience, you cannot separate the two. You can have decent music, but words that are not scriptural; or you can have scriptural words, and yet have music that ruins the whole mood the song could possess.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    what exactly causes music to be evil? Is it just what your opinion is? What makes a beat bad? is it just certian beats? How do you rate if music is good or bad?

    Sorry my post is so short, but all i really have at this point is questions.

    Until Next Post, Adam

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: flyfree432 ]
     
  10. Barnabas H.

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432: what exactly causes music to be evil? Is it just what your opinion is? What makes a beat bad? is it just certian beats? How do you rate if music is good or bad?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am glad you asked that question! Dr. Cassidy answered that one on his church website eloquently. Please see the URL below: http://members.tripod.com/~ThomasCassidy/music.html [​IMG]
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    A rule of thumb is "speak no ill of the dead". I break that rule regularly when critical of the heresy and evil deeds of a now-dead preacher from Hammond.

    I met Al Smith only once and agree, he was a gracious man. His Hymnal Living Hymns is another matter. EVERY hymnal reflects its compiler - Al Smith's songs (most little known and never sung) permeate.

    Of course, this means that a # of great hymns and songs are omitted so that his work could replace it. That is my complaint - the book, not the man. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  12. Daniel

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    Dr. Bob: I have yet to find a perfect hymnal. I do understand what you mean about LIVING HYMNS. It often frustrated me. But worse than that is the one I must currently use--SOUL STIRRING SONGS AND HYMNS (connected to John R. Rice/Sword of the Lord). It doesn't even have "How Great Thou Art" in it! I have been on a diligent search for a truly classic hymnal. I've looked at dozens. I'm still not sure I've found one. There is a little known one called MAJESTY HYMNS compiled by Dr. Frank Garlock. If you ever see it, please LMK what you think. Thanks.....
     
  13. Brother Adam

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by B. J. Halo:


    I am glad you asked that question! Dr. Cassidy answered that one on his church website eloquently. Please see the URL below: http://members.tripod.com/~ThomasCassidy/music.html [​IMG]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have been through Dr. Cassidy's essay, and I can appreciate where the doc is coming from yet I still don't agree. I don't want to go to much more in depth on this topic, but it seems that the road we are traveling down by putting all of these stipulations on music we are becoming way to legalistic when there are bigger battles to be fighting then whether someone uses a tape to accompany their special music or not.

    The fact does remain that peoples lives have been changed for Christ through CCM and Christian rock music. Perhaps the mosh pits aren't a good idea- yet for that one person sitting in the back with his youth group at a concert...that one person who through the bands devotion and prayer time realizes his need for Jesus Christ...for that one person- how do I condemn the artist who through his music is furthering the kingdom of Christ?

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  14. Daniel

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    Adam, we always rejoice at someone's salvation; and, to be honest, that is by far the most important thing in the world to a truly genuine Christian. Yes, these music issues are not the BIG THING in the grand scheme of things, but these issues serve to show a reflection of where the church of Jesus Christ stands in the 21st century. We have become a weak, worldly-oriented bunch. By advocating the things that been discussed in these threads we are showing how far down the path of degeneration we have come. No doubt God "shakes His head" at our foolishness and sensuality. He has so much He wants to do for us, but we don't give Him a chance because we are overly steeped in the cares and ways of the world. When will we ever wake up? (a la Romans 14)

    [ August 29, 2001: Message edited by: Daniel ]
     
  15. Brother Adam

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    Daniel, I agree that the church today in a rut (sp?). Yet it is also hard to hang onto the traditions of the apostles in a world that is much different then when the apostles lived. We have to always be on the look out for new ways to reach people for Christ. I will consent that it is hard to worship God in heavy metal/ska/rap/hard rock yet these artists and bands are reaching into a world of people that need the gospel message. The genuine artists in this Christian genre dedicate their music to our savior and during or after their performance present their testimonies, often present the gospel message, and give an invatation.

    We cannot know how God thinks so saying that God turns away when someone sings in church to a tape is quite (or otherwise)...oh i can't think of the word but you know what i mean. I think that God does indeed use these artists and bands attempts to glorify Him in thier (former)culture and does not look down on it. Perhaps He looks down on the moshing, perhaps the "wrong" doctrine in the lyrics, perhaps the beat is too hard, yet He still works through our attempts to reach His children. I think we need to be careful in just HOW critical we are to these artists and bands. I believe we need to be praying for them and the lost that they minister to.

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  16. Daniel

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    Adam: a point to ponder--what you win them with you win them to. (I know you're not supposed to end with a preposition, you English teachers! LOL!) That quote has a lot of weight. It's not original with me by any means. I've thought about it for years. I've watched people from various backgrounds/salvation experiences. The quote has in many ways proven true. Those who came from a more contemporary salvation experience by and large remained as Christian infants and manifested general worldliness (rather than Biblical separation). My question is this, why not go to a better and higher way as found in the loving, nurturing realtionship with the Heavenly Father that is born out of a separate lifestyle as advocated in II Cor. 6:14-7:1? Wouldn't that be better? I think so. Give it some thought, Adam.
     
  17. KeeperOfMyHome

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    I read an article recently, and it brought out an exellent point: since when are we to use music to spread the Gospel message? Faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the word of God.
     
  18. Dr. Bob

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    There are a lot worse baptist hymnals than Living Hymns! I agree with the assessment of Soul Stirring Songs and Hymns as a pathetic compilation, mostly of emotion-driven songs (few hymns).

    Great Hymns of the Faith and Inspiring Hymns are hopelessly outdated, without some of the truly blessed modern hymns, songs and choruses. I do love their collection of old, solid hymns for Worship!

    Best hymnal I have found in the past decade is Word's "The Hymnal for Worship and Celebration". It has a great blend of songs, medlies (with transitions from one hymn to the next), lower keys for easier congregational singing, etc.

    NO hymnal will have all my favorites. And every hymnal will change a few words here or there on a song (mostly to avoid copyright laws or just because it is sung differently in different parts of America).
     
  19. Daniel

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    Keeper: you are right on in terms of music and soulwinning. Music is NOT primarily to serve evangelistic purposes; music is primarily a tool to express adoration and worship for God. Even the Psalm 40 passage says: Many shall SEE IT, not HEAR IT (reference to the new song)...BTW, could this also be a hint to us that our music should NOT look and sound like the world? It just may have that implication! Back to the issue at hand--people who think of music as primarily evangelistic are misguided. It's the preaching of the Word that is primary in God's heart and mind. Even as a Minister of Music in my local church I put preaching at the number one position. My ministry falls under and is intended to complement the preaching ministry, not the other way around. A lot of the bantering we've had in the various musuic forums has been technically unnecessary due to the point you brought out in your brief, concise post. Thanks, Keeper, for re-aligning our focus!
     
  20. preacher

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    Amen and Amen... I still believe that on the majority, music will stir the emotions, while
    the Word will stir the soul!
     

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