MMF - The neutrality of Music - Instruments yes lyrics no

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Sularis, Apr 9, 2002.

  1. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    I had to continue and hopefully solidify

    Music without words - IS neutral

    I can take ANY psalm, spiritual song, and hymn you think of; and with just a little prodding my old nature can rear its ugly head and turn that "spiritual" song and casue it to blaspheme God. And I dont need instruments to do it

    If something is truly holy it cannot be defiled

    Aaron, as you can tell I disagree with you;
    However your site is quite interesting.

    The use of any instruments so as long as it does not interfere with the teaching and revelation of God's Word; during that time of praise and afterwards. Also the prohibition extends to the affecting of any Christian's personal growth in a negative way. The other limitation is that of inhibiting the call of God to unbelievers.

    Ive also read the post telling a woman to leave the church because the only thing "wrong" was the praise style - but the doctrine is correct. If the doctrine is correct then wouldnt necessarily the praise be following the doctrinal "correctness"

    Although I understand the desire for more traditional hymns I cannot condone or suggest the leaving of a church over just style

    [ September 14, 2002, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
  2. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    What about if the teaching/preaching matches the music style and is also shallow,non-expository,life lessons,feel good sermonettes. Doesn't this usually match the style of musi?. That casual style with little reverence tends to bring down worship,not elevate it. And,it is okay that Aaron told me to leave. We have been prayerfully considering that a long time. His words really don't make the decision for us. We are still there....but desiring for a deeper more committed to God's Word church,because that is where we are in our personal lives. There are churches doing things right out there.I think we should choose what is best and a church that fears the Lord seems to have a better attitude towards God,His worship,and His Word. We long for that. Aaron is not responsible for our decisions,but I do appreciate wise counsel. I agreee with a lot of what Aaron is saying,not EVERYTHING,but I do see what he is saying. We should be open to it...we tend to dig our heels in because we simply like something,but it doesn't mean it is right or best. ;)
     
  3. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also,think about this: Take a serious song about surrendering to Christ...play it with a serious kinda slow style and see the meaning of the words,and then play it with as happy clappy tune and beat...does only the Words matter,doesn't the tune and beat have something to do with how a message is carried? This lighthearted beat and carefree tune tends to make people feel good and they can get into it,it is cool...but reverent,does that vehicle,so to speak carry the message(content) properly? I think we make light of the things of God in the area of music. There is an excellent way...I just think the message should fit the style.
     
  4. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,655
    Likes Received:
    225
    Sularis,

    Music is not neutral. Specific styles evoke certain emotions and physical responses which are universal and quite independent of culture or upbringing.

    Aaron
     
  5. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    John Mac makes an analogy on the bible bulletin board about this very subject...he says that if you hear striptease music,we all know what that sounds like,we think of that particular thing. Any kind of music does that...it refers to a particualr thing,object,etc. Also,he says,if you take really high bilical content and put it to a sleezy sounding tune,the words do not elevate the style,the style brings down the message....think about it. :eek:
     
  6. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aaron your statement is a fallacy based on an individual's understanding of cultural backgrounds

    Indian music - no offense microtones make me nauseous, and elicit disgust from me. The music is just darn grating. But there are people who do not feel that way.

    Molly, Aaron what is striptease music? Is there specific style of music written specifically for the purpose of striptease?

    Again some other forms of Asian music are often misunderstood by me.

    So unless Im a total freak - my feelings towards music (especially microtonal) invalidate your theory
     
  7. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    4
    I believe music is far from neutral.

    In the movies, the music being played to each scene can either make it or break it.

    When the damsel is being tied to the train trestle, you don't hear "Ode to Joy." You hear music that creates & elaborates on the danger she's in.

    When the damsel falls into the hero's arms at the end of the show, you don't hear "Iron Man," but sweet, romantic music to reflect the mood.

    When Rocky is standing at the top of the stairs, you don't hear "Feelings, nothing more than feelings...", you hear triumphant hero music.

    Music, in and of itself, has power to evoke all kinds of emotions.
    1Samuel 16:14 But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. 15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. 16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well. 17 And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. 18 Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him. 19 Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep. 20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. 21 And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. 22 And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight. 23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

    There is no mention of David singing, just playing.
     
  8. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sularis,you really don't know what striptease music sounds like? I can't explain it with words,but it has a sleezy loose beat and tune. It is defintely different from the tune and sound of When I survey the Wondrous Cross or a song like that.

    Now,if you put the biblical words to a tune that resembles a worldy immoral activity,then it would degrade the message,not relate to people that go to strip tease bars. It seems ludicrous the reasoning for allowing a contemporary style.
     
  9. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did you know that you can sing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "The Stripper"?

    Go ahead. Try it. :cool:

    Mike
     
  10. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    But,I don't want to. I like Amazing Grace that way it is,the way it was written. Whay would someone want to take a song and change it that way?
     
  11. Ransom

    Ransom
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2000
    Messages:
    4,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Molly said:

    It ["strip" music] is defintely different from the tune and sound of When I survey the Wondrous Cross or a song like that.

    Really? Actually, the first few phrases of "The Stripper" aren't all that different, melodically, from "Just a Closer Walk With Thee."

    Also, judging from a few news items, late-night commercials, etc. that I have seen, "strip" music these days is run-of-the-mill dance/techno, not big band.
     
  12. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    But that still doesn't make it okay for corporate worship....right? :( :( :(

    Please say you agree....I'm really getting concerned with this *everything is okay* kinda attitude....
     
  13. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    But you're not changing "Amazing Grace", you're changing "The Stripper".

    If that doesn't float your boat, you can also sing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of "Peaceful, Easy Feeling", the Hollies' "Bus Stop", "Little Surfer Girl" and Ted Nugent's "Stranglehold".

    Mike

    http://www.keylife.org
     
  14. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,655
    Likes Received:
    225
    Ditto Mr. Curtis' post.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,655
    Likes Received:
    225
    Sularis,

    You stated a premise with no evidence. Could you cite any musicologist who would say that music is neutral and our reactions to it are culturally conditioned?
     
  16. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    OOH because a scientist says something is true that makes it true.

    I can then quote several scientists who believe in evolution. The educational background of a person doesnt necessarily mean that they are right. Take those evolutionary scientists. Take various non-Christian professionals for instance - they're educated arent they, but they aren't Christians

    I looked at yer passages, they forbid NOTHING. To state that a passage forbids something, when it does NOT say that these are only instruments allowed; NOR does it say that these instruments are forbidden.; then it does NOT FORBID!

    I prefer traditional hymns, and classical music; but you throw out drums which are used in them. Instruments are there to guide the singing, because another one of my pet peeves is people who sing out of tune. Any person can sing in tune if they make an effort. But most people are lazy and wont, just saying that they are poor singers. Balderdash!!! I've lead choirs, and have trained tone-deaf people to recognize their tendencies to be off tune, and compensate. They became the lead duets for the year they were with the choir until they moved.

    Your interpretation Scripture leaves much to be desired. As well your premises are flawed inasmuch that you assume emotions are something to be avoided; and also people of different cultures will interpret different pieces of music based on their own culture as well as their understanding of the originating culture.
    I haven't bothered to try and find "scientists" to verify my opinions - because guess what its my opinion; and I dont need anyone save God to verify my beliefs. ;) However I will not dare to suggest that because what someone does will affect their salvation; NOR will I suggest that we ignore and avoid certain people whose viewpoints that are different then us, just because we percieve them to be wrong.
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,655
    Likes Received:
    225
    So your answer is, "No, I can't cite anyone who has really studied music and its effects who would agree that music is neutral."

    Thank you. ;)
     
  18. Sularis

    Sularis
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    940
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok I think I have to be blunt; Aaron you ARE WRONG.

    I want you to prove that ANY emotion is wrong -
    Bible rebuttals only.

    Aaron fine, you want me to quote useless windbags who agree with me, rather then reasoning using Scripture and logic, and trying on your own to come to a conclusion so be it.... I just did a net search and this is what I got on the first run that agreed with me to some degree

    http://spiritual.crosswalk.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID74456%7CCHID194891%7CCIID510324,00.html

    http://spiritual.crosswalk.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID74456|CHID194891|CIID510332,00.html

    http://spiritual.crosswalk.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID74456|CHID194891|CIID510328,00.html
    http://spiritual.crosswalk.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID74456|CHID194891|CIID510326,00.html

    http://andrewmarr.homestead.com/files/music/musictruth.htm

    http://www.acu.edu/cte/facint/faith/music-rev.html

    http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/3599/researchpaper.html

    Hopefully, you can understand by now, that your opinions and "proofs" and "evidence" are based on personal opinions of whoever committed those studies

    But let me summarize - no emotions are bad - no rhythm or beat sinful - The only aspect that is sinful is the lyrics or the CULTURAL ASSOCIATIONS.

    So be careful lil Aaron what you type. On this board we each member take on the "pastoral" responsibility of making sure we are Scriptural and do not lead people astray or else it will be worse then Sodom and Gomorrah - Im willing to die if God so requires me to for my position. Though I really doubt God will expect anyone to die save for issues concerning salvation.
     
  19. redwhitenblue

    redwhitenblue
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2001
    Messages:
    451
    Likes Received:
    0
    Molly actually striptease music is no longer secluded to one particular style...all types are used now.

    Music is extremely neutral, the message to the music is what will pound truth or lies into a head but the music is simply entertaining.

    Karen
     
  20. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/curtis.gif>

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    4
    I'm not going to say rock music is evil. I don't know if it is or not. People are making some biblical points do back up what they are saying.

    But music is not neutral. I do know this to be true.

    "Atmospheres are going to come through music, because the music is a spiritual thing of its own ... you hypnotize people to where they go right back to their natural state which is pure positive the subconscious what we want to say ... People want release any kind of way nowadays. The idea is to release in the proper form. Then they'll feel like going into another world, a clearer world. The music flows from the air; that’s why I connect with a spirit, and when they come down off this natural high, they see clearer, feel different things..." (Jimmy Hendrix, rock star, Life, Oct. 3, 1969, p. 74).

    Music is powerful, all by it's self.
     

Share This Page

Loading...