Modernism

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Apr 6, 2003.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Should Bible believing Baptists continue in fellowship with those who fly under the "Baptist" label while holding to unorthodox theology?

    By "unorthdox theology" I'm thinking of modernistic theology (which is not to deny that there are many other heresies outside of modernism).

    By "fellowship" I mean to be members of the same churches and same assoications of churches.

    Specifically, could you as a Baptist conscientiously hold membership in a church which fellowshipped in a local association which included in it's fellowship churches which advocated the doctrines of evolution, higher criticism of the Scriptures, universalism, sodomy and other modernistic heresies?

    My answer is, NO, I could not be part of such a church.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman
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    I could not continue in fellowship with such church(es).

    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Deacon

    Deacon
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    I would agree. Some however will include even further modernistic treads.

    Contemporary music
    Inclusion of drums in a worship service
    Use of any of the modern version bibles
    Acceptance of dressing down during services
    Open communion
    Etc..

    I enjoy the “fellowship” of the Baptist Boards because of the opportunity to read opinions and get exposure to the ideas, practices and opinions that are well beyond the limited experiences I have in my community. Acceptance of some different practices and different ideas sometimes helps us grow.
     
  4. Jim1999

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    In essence I agree. At the same token, I have served as minister in such conventions. My question, Where would the people be to-day had all the conservatives left them without the gospel and the truth of God's word? Where would the Southern Baptist Convention be to-day?

    The British Baptist Union was heading into liberalism, but was reclaimed by evangelicals. The Baptist Conventions in Canada has virtually been reclaimed, whilst there are still many liberals also serving. It is not always a black and white issue, and just up an leaving is not always the answer. Liberalism is largely amongst the clergy, not the people. If we leave, we abandon the people. Frankly, I am of two minds on this question.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  5. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Jim,

    If the true believers had abandoned all ecclesiastical ties with the associations that were infiltrated and controlled by modernists it might well have saved their posterity from being captured by the modernist wolves. "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."

    The groups you mention are still full of modernists. Some of them are very open others are more clandestine, but the presence is still there. A "takeover" or a "takeback" of denominational machinary never changes anyone's heart.

    The Scripture says to "come out from among them and be ye separate." That is pretty clear to me.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  6. rsr

    rsr
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    OK, Mark, I'll bite. Just what is "modernistic" theology?
     
  7. Jim1999

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    I am not so sure that is what 2 Cor 6:17 refers , although many quote it that way. I am still concerned about the sheep left behind, and ministry is my first obligation.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Jim,

    You said,

    "I am not so sure that is what 2 Cor 6:17 refers , although many quote it that way. I am still concerned about the sheep left behind, and ministry is my first obligation."

    "Come out from among them and be ye separate" refers to separating from the fellowship of unbelievers. If a modernist does not qualify as an unbeliever what does? The very essence of modernism is to disbelieve the Scriptures. In fact, modernism is the epitome of unbelief.

    I don't say the sheep should be left behind. I say the sheep should be led out of the midst of wolves. So leading them is a vital part of the work of the ministry.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  9. Artimaeus

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    Our church is in the process of deciding whether or not to drop support for a native missionary in Haiti. It seems that he has begun accepting support from a member organization of the world council of churches. If after our investigation it turns out to be true we will no doubt cease support. I would not be a member of a church who doesn't have the backbone to stand up for what it believes. Jesus din't join the Pharasees to straighten them out. Paul left them because of their corrupt system. Neither stopped being Jews, but they didn't belong to any heretical groups to "takeback", "takeover", or anything else.
     
  10. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    RSR,

    Modernism, as distinct from other heresies, is the rejection of the Scriptures as an absolute standard of truth. The traditional heresies, such as Campbellism and Calvinism, are based on misinterpretations of the Scriptures while. By contrast, modernism is based on a rejection of the Scriptures themselves.

    Modernism is currently the standard theology among most of the old Protestant denominations as well as the American Baptist Churches USA and many idividual Southern Baptist churches.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  11. Paul of Eugene

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    What about someone who believes the Bible is the standard of truth except when they know the Bible can't possibly be correct and therefore we merely re-interpret what the Bible says to agree with what we know to be the truth?
     
  12. Jim1999

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    So, as a Calvinist, I am a modernist. Because my understanding of the Bible differs to Mark's, I am a modernist. If that is so, then I am quite happy to be a modernist.

    I like labels on garments that tell me how to clean them, and labels on jars to tell me about the contents, but never did like labels on people.

    I remember Billy Graham coming to the Avenue Road Church, where Charles Templeton was pastor, and later A.W. Tozer. Graham was critical of the Anglican minister across the road, until Templeton told him that he was also principal of the most evangelical Bible College in the city. A great lesson was learned. Just because we understand some things differently does not make us a "modernist".

    My test of fellowship is on Jesus Christ alone. On reading church history, and all the groups down through the ages, and all the different doctrines that have been espoused, we have relatively few differences to-day.

    Standards in Baptist churches have also changed down through the ages. These changes have nothing to do with doctrine, but just the same, changes. We knock the other fellow's doctrines, whilst adapting ourselves to worldly habits. It is something like removing the toothpick from his eyes whilst housing a log in our own.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  13. Daniel Dunivan

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    The problem with this way of thinking is that it fails to (while we are quoting scripture) "see the beam" one's own eye. Do you really think that the way you interpret scripture is exactly the same as a first generation Christian did? Give me a break. We are modernists whether we recognize it or not.

    Besides, our culture (and the wider church culture will follow because it always has) is moving past moderninity into a postmodern/postchristian orientation. Will you simply curse the darkness or light a candle for others to see?

    Grace and Peace,

    Danny

    Calvinism is not modernist anymore than having a non-Roman Catholic or Orthodox church. Its wrong for other reasons [​IMG] .
     
  14. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
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    Jim,

    Please go back and read my post. I did not say that Calvinism is modernism. I said that Calvinism is not modernism.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  15. Harald

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    Right now when myself thinks of the word modernism I think of some perverted brand of Christianity which has left the old landmarks, chiefly the New Testament as a body of doctrine, and the orthodox interpretation of it as held by e.g. the old Particular Baptists of England and the Old Regular Baptists of USA. An apostasy of NT Gospel order, in brief. My reaction to modernism is and will be Biblical Separation. All claimed manifestations of Christianity, I speak of bodies, such as local churches or denominations so called, which are not biblically separatistic are in error from the NT pattern. One of the best books on separation in general is one by Ernest Pickering, "Biblical Separation". It is also one of the most important books I have ever read so far, and it had some part in my separating from a group of modernistic Baptists in my hometown.

    It is kind of funny that the would-be preachers I had listened to until that moment had never ever taught about ecclesiastical separation, although they were Baptists. Separation is one of the hallmarks of Baptists, historically considered. I had to learn the truth about separation from the USA via this book, for which I am thankful to God.

    Many modernists vilify such who want to follow the Biblical rule of separation by calling them legalists. Ecclesiastical separation per se is not legalism.

    Modernism. No thanks.


    Harald
     
  16. Scott J

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    You mean the Bible is the standard for truth except when you say it isn't? Doesn't that make you or some other person whose opinion you've adopted the actual standard of truth?
     
  17. christfollower55

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    GOD said I am the way, the truth and the life no man commeth unto the Father but by Me.


    and GOD's word is the way the truth and the life.....


    GOD BLESS AMERICA
     
  18. Scott J

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    Calvinism a heresy? When you prove it to be irrefutably contrary to scripture, please let the world know. Until then it is only your opinion that it is not a correct interpretation.

    Odd that you would bait like this to hijack your own thread.
     
  19. Daniel David

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    When you are tired of hijacking the calvinists threads, you have to turn somewhere. [​IMG]
     
  20. Scott J

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    Modernism basically says that everything must be explainable by naturalistic/materialistic means. Modernists to varying degrees reject the supernatural, the historocity of scripture, and the orthodox doctrine of scripture. They filter what they are willing to believe from the Bible through the philosophy of modernism. What the Bible says must be conformed to 'scientific reality.'

    Most modernists will reject a literal interpretation of the first 11 chapters of Genesis as well as many/all of the Bible's miracles. In the extreme, you have the Jesus Seminar. Moderately, you have old earth creationism.
     

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